What happens to premix oil in the saw?

[Yukon Stihl]

You ask many questions but give little info on what oil your talking about. Synthetic tends not to burn. Ester is another thang. Natural blended oil burn somewhat depending on the package in them.

Zinc don't burn so rule that out.

Synthetic oil burns just fine in my waste oil burner. Same as veggie oil, Dino oil,gas or diesel. Any zinc is probably in the ashes

 

[Yukon Stihl]

Did you have a clean not oiled control in each test?

Could much of the rust in engines form while they are running? A burn barrel takes many years to rust thouroghly if nothing is ever burned, but a frequently used barrel will turn to dust in less than a year.

Heat accelerates rust formation.

Get a better barrel, mine is getting close to 20 years. The barrel is probably 75 years old

 

[Egg Shooter]

Get a better barrel, mine is getting close to 20 years. The barrel is probably 75 years old

Lol.

 

[Lightning Performance]

https://www.dropbox.com/s/2q23m6de8ukwtn5/Oil Migration Sheet.pdf?dl=0

This is that oil migration sheet from Maxima oils. Just click continue on to website if you don't have the app. Its a pdf and I can't post it directly with my phone. Basically, more rpm needs more oil. Most engines are over oiled at idle, sufficiently oiled at 1/2 throttle and under oiled at full throttle. That explains why, if I'm cutting small branches with my 2511 where full throttle is very short if at all and it spends time idling, I'll see a bit of oil on the muff. It also explains why, when cutting larger wood where, comparatively long cuts are made, there isn't any muff drool. There is a lot more to it than just the ratio. Tune, oils composition and how you are using the engine changes things. There is no one size fits all. I'm sure an arborists in tree saw would be more likely to see some drool vs a loggers saw considering how much difference there is in how the saws are operated.

Yup
Fresh 200T today is puking oil out the muffler.
Light sanding with 320, ported everything, meteor kit, oem saw.
30-1 Schaeffer's 7000 mixed for my big saws on the mill.
16" wood dry white oak hearts to cut cookies. Had a taste like... like not on my mill. The mill smells good. This, not so much.

I don't see rust in engines I operate, ever so I'm doubtful that theory holds water. Also, in my garage are all sorts of un oiled bare steel, aluminum and magnesium. So, although not set up as the control, none the less they are in the same environment. I envite you to try the experiment. See how it pans out in your part of the country.

I buy chainsaws and tools from the bay area on the coast. Learned all I need to know about moisture in tools.

 

[Egg Shooter]

Yup
Fresh 200T today is puking oil out the muffler.
Light sanding with 320, ported everything, meteor kit, oem saw.
30-1 Schaeffer's 7000 mixed for my big saws on the mill.
16" wood dry white oak hearts to cut cookies. Had a taste like... like not on my mill. The mill smells good. This, not so much.


I buy chainsaws and tools from the bay area on the coast. Learned all I need to know about moisture in tools.

I bet *s-worde that sits around there long rust and corrodes up pronto.

 

[Lightning Performance]

I bet *s-worde that sits around there long rust and corrodes up pronto.

Wholly cases... lol

 

[Egg Shooter]

Wholly cases... lol

The white death of magnesium

 

[Lightning Performance]

The white death of magnesium

No the wet grey rot that never stops.
Magnesium and salt gets funky and aerobic, weird chit. Just add moist air and it will be wet to the touch. The bars go quick. Chain... lol.
They run them cutting off treated wood and dirty piling s soaked in salt and who knows what. The bay drops you got days to recover and submerge them or why bother.
I dipped a few outboard motors overnight in my day. Running by noon of the next so no worries. New caps and battery your good. Main cables and the starter solenoid is about it. Flush and dry the rest. Pull the heads to be sure.

 

[Bull Mountains]

Funny you mention the rust deal. I just recently concluded two rust tests. One was a year long with 6 different oils, full synthetic, blends and a full mineral. I smeared each on clean bare steel and let set uncovered in my uninsulated, unheated, garage where the floor sweats in summer from the humidity and we often are below zero in winter. Guys in the oil PM were there for this. None caused / allowed any rust to form. Fuel was not involved.

Next, also recently completed was a test on Dominator. I ran two string trimmers on 40:1 mix. One was VP 94 the other E-free pump 90 octane. They were put away in the same garage last fall at the end of the season and taken back out a few weeks ago. Normal homeowner type storage. Not ran all winter. One trimmer was hung so oil would drain away from the internals to the crankcase cover, the other stored engine up so oil stayed on the internals. No rust on either or any other corrosion and the one hanging still had red oil on all the internals despite being hung up. But wait.... there's more.

I have a crankshaft that I slathered in Dominator and placed it in a Ziploc open just enough to allow air in / out. Also the same garage. That will be a year in 9 more days. Still shiny. Why the special Dominator tests? Because Dominator causes rust don't ya know. Says so on the bottle. Lol. It why you can't run it in outboards "they" say. Outboards and rust are not the reason Amsoil has the disclaimer. Its about using a non TCW3 oil in an outboard. Dominator does say NOT to use with fuels containing alcohol. I'm sure alcohol / oxygenated fuels are the reason for most engine corrosion no matter the oil.

The last test currently happening may be of most interest to you. This came about from a discussion in my oil PM similar to your statement about mineral oils protect better from rust. I've never had rust / corrosion with any oil I've used, mineral, blend or full synthetic, so I have zero input other than my own experience and the above outlined experiments. My equipment also never sets a year unran. I'll fog it if that would be the case. Anyway, that's where this last test comes in. I took 12 mason jars and six oils. Two each of full synthetic, blend and mineral. I mixed each oil with E-free pump and 87 10% ethanol pump fuel. So each oil mix is in jars, one with ethanol, one without. In each jar is a piece of bare steel, magnesium and aluminum. These jars are capped with a small vent hole. This test will go till complete evaporation has occurred. I look forward to the results.




In a nut shell, for me, in my area, I have zero concerns about engine internals rusting. Someone in the deep south might have different issues. View attachment 294066

The problem arises from the acids formed by combustion. I have seen many times engines with rust on crank webs, bearings etc. The worst oil for this was Redline. The Banshee I currently own had rusted crank bearings from sitting over the winter after being run on Klotz ST.

 

[Bull Mountains]

Synthetic oil burns just fine in my waste oil burner. Same as veggie oil, Dino oil,gas or diesel. Any zinc is probably in the ashes

Synthetics used in two cycles are designed to burn.

 

[Egg Shooter]

The problem arises from the acids formed by combustion. I have seen many times engines with rust on crank webs, bearings etc. The worst oil for this was Redline. The Banshee I currently own had rusted crank bearings from sitting over the winter after being run on Klotz ST.

Interesting point. I myself thinks that acids from combustion, in a mechanically healthy 2 stroke, should be very low in the bottom end based on its oil being replenished with fresh new oil constantly as it runs. I would also think the ring, plug tip and inside the muffler / pipe would rust long before the bottom end during storage considering these components are directly subjected to the combustion event and its byproducts. I've had near 50 vintage chainsaws if you were to add up the ones I've sold or given away to the ones I currently own. 4 of them had mufflers so rusty inside they were crumbling yet nothing inside on the engine internals. These were obviously retired before ethanol as they all had what looked to be original fuel lines and ran, without carb rebuilds after the muffs were cleaned. Some didn't run great as the diaphragms were a little stiff from age. Anything ive encountered that is "modern" 90's and newer, lines are rotted off, carbs need a kit and some do have corrosion in the crankcase, mainly the aluminum / magnesium being eaten from within.
I don't doubt some combustion byproducts find their way in the bottom but I don't believe its enough on a healthy 2 stroke to have any effects. At least I've not seen it in over 30 years. Makes me wonder if 2 stroke oil even has a TBN rating at all.

I am curious Ben, did this banshee crank rust happen when you lived in the Upper peninsula of Michigan or where you live now? Maybe your current climate is wetter? Colder? Just wondering.

 

[qurotro]

More oil is gooder I think..

 

[Nutball]

Yup, it makes them quieter if you use enough.

 

[Bull Mountains]

Interesting point. I myself thinks that acids from combustion, in a mechanically healthy 2 stroke, should be very low in the bottom end based on its oil being replenished with fresh new oil constantly as it runs. I would also think the ring, plug tip and inside the muffler / pipe would rust long before the bottom end during storage considering these components are directly subjected to the combustion event and its byproducts. I've had near 50 vintage chainsaws if you were to add up the ones I've sold or given away to the ones I currently own. 4 of them had mufflers so rusty inside they were crumbling yet nothing inside on the engine internals. These were obviously retired before ethanol as they all had what looked to be original fuel lines and ran, without carb rebuilds after the muffs were cleaned. Some didn't run great as the diaphragms were a little stiff from age. Anything ive encountered that is "modern" 90's and newer, lines are rotted off, carbs need a kit and some do have corrosion in the crankcase, mainly the aluminum / magnesium being eaten from within.
I don't doubt some combustion byproducts find their way in the bottom but I don't believe its enough on a healthy 2 stroke to have any effects. At least I've not seen it in over 30 years. Makes me wonder if 2 stroke oil even has a TBN rating at all.

I am curious Ben, did this banshee crank rust happen when you lived in the Upper peninsula of Michigan or where you live now? Maybe your current climate is wetter? Colder? Just wondering.

The banshee rusted here in Montana. I was very supprised because it's so damn dry here(high desert essentially). However castor has been known to attract moisture and esters have very minimal corrosion protection abilities.
The other thing to consider as far as bottom end rust goes. The fuel itself contains sulfur compounds, although there are less of these than in the past. Fuel also almost always contains some moisture. And unless your using efree you have to think about ethanol and its water attracting properties.
And two stroke oils are not tested for TBN because they contain such minimal amounts of calcium or magnesium for air cooled oils and zero for marine oils.

 

[Bull Mountains]

Attached is a CR500 cylinder ported by Tom Morgan. I don't know the history of the bike this came out of other than it came from South Carolina. When I went to rebuild it I discovered the crank wheel/tins were rusted and the cylinder had rust on the sleeve. I also discovered the cylinder was on its last oversize so it's a paper weight now until I get the bored plated with Nicisil over the steel liner to restore it.

 

[Egg Shooter]

Attached is a CR500 cylinder ported by Tom Morgan. I don't know the history of the bike this came out of other than it came from South Carolina. When I went to rebuild it I discovered the crank wheel/tins were rusted and the cylinder had rust on the sleeve. I also discovered the cylinder was on its last oversize so it's a paper weight now until I get the bored plated with Nicisil over the steel liner to restore it.
View attachment 294259

Wow. I've never had that issue here. All E-free fuel here. Vp 94 or Sunoco Optima 95 in my good saws and E-free pump in everything else.

 

[Wonkydonkey]

Yup, it makes them quieter if you use enough.

View attachment 294225

live seen a few vids of farmers flushing rats or rabbits out of there holes with a pipe added to the exhaust with the same sort of smoke in your pic.

the dogs have an easy time while they try to figure out where to run

 

[drf256]

Funny you mention the rust deal. I just recently concluded two rust tests. One was a year long with 6 different oils, full synthetic, blends and a full mineral. I smeared each on clean bare steel and let set uncovered in my uninsulated, unheated, garage where the floor sweats in summer from the humidity and we often are below zero in winter. Guys in the oil PM were there for this. None caused / allowed any rust to form. Fuel was not involved.

Next, also recently completed was a test on Dominator. I ran two string trimmers on 40:1 mix. One was VP 94 the other E-free pump 90 octane. They were put away in the same garage last fall at the end of the season and taken back out a few weeks ago. Normal homeowner type storage. Not ran all winter. One trimmer was hung so oil would drain away from the internals to the crankcase cover, the other stored engine up so oil stayed on the internals. No rust on either or any other corrosion and the one hanging still had red oil on all the internals despite being hung up. But wait.... there's more.

I have a crankshaft that I slathered in Dominator and placed it in a Ziploc open just enough to allow air in / out. Also the same garage. That will be a year in 9 more days. Still shiny. Why the special Dominator tests? Because Dominator causes rust don't ya know. Says so on the bottle. Lol. It why you can't run it in outboards "they" say. Outboards and rust are not the reason Amsoil has the disclaimer. Its about using a non TCW3 oil in an outboard. Dominator does say NOT to use with fuels containing alcohol. I'm sure alcohol / oxygenated fuels are the reason for most engine corrosion no matter the oil.

The last test currently happening may be of most interest to you. This came about from a discussion in my oil PM similar to your statement about mineral oils protect better from rust. I've never had rust / corrosion with any oil I've used, mineral, blend or full synthetic, so I have zero input other than my own experience and the above outlined experiments. My equipment also never sets a year unran. I'll fog it if that would be the case. Anyway, that's where this last test comes in. I took 12 mason jars and six oils. Two each of full synthetic, blend and mineral. I mixed each oil with E-free pump and 87 10% ethanol pump fuel. So each oil mix is in jars, one with ethanol, one without. In each jar is a piece of bare steel, magnesium and aluminum. These jars are capped with a small vent hole. This test will go till complete evaporation has occurred. I look forward to the results.




In a nut shell, for me, in my area, I have zero concerns about engine internals rusting. Someone in the deep south might have different issues. View attachment 294066

Great to know. Thank you.

 

[Egg Shooter]

esters have very minimal corrosion protection abilities.

And two stroke oils are not tested for TBN

From everything I've read, no oil, mineral or synthetic has any rust / corrosion protection. It's all in the additive package that is chosen.

I'm not surprised TBN isn't mesured in 2 stroke oil as it is constantly replenished and burnt up, unlike a 4 cycle where the oil has to contend with many hours of slow oil degradation through contamination from the combustion process and dirt from the environment. Some always gets in. Air filters are only so good.

 

[Bull Mountains]

From everything I've read, no oil, mineral or synthetic has any rust / corrosion protection. It's all in the additive package that is chosen.

I'm not surprised TBN isn't mesured in 2 stroke oil as it is constantly replenished and burnt up, unlike a 4 cycle where the oil has to contend with many hours of slow oil degradation through contamination from the combustion process and dirt from the environment. Some always gets in. Air filters are only so good.

That's not true. Straight mineral oil will protect against corrosion. It won't neutralize combustion related acids, but it will protect against moisture.
Esters break down pretty easily when exposed to water and some attract water. That's why they were used in some marine products advertised as bio degradable.