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Another chainsaw dyno...

Deets066

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Just trying to understand things, but your old hybrid, Which had a very flat torque curve with a slight peek near peak hp, Did you feel that it wanted to maintain RPM at the torque peak or did it feel like it didn’t matter what rpm you were loading the saw it would always pull? Obviously have I have never ran your saw, that’s why I asked. Most of us have ran a saw that had good RPM, but would not maintain the RPM under much load, Just trying to understand how the Dyno relates to real world power curve usage. And how do you feel it would run a long bar, forgetting the Oiler part of it, Really not trying to be controversial just trying to understand things

On a bike you want that pull from low rpm up through the midrange. So you need useable power throughout that range.
On a saw you want that power at the rpm your cutting. I don’t need peak torque at 6,000 rpm on a saw.
 

Bigmac

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It seemed like it would hold rpm with whatever bar chain combo you put on it. Sometimes it was just a tad lower, like when I put a 36” on it.
I don’t recall ever putting a 7 pin sprocket on it
I guess I’m kind of meaning with a 36 inch bar eight pin rim, could you dog it in and lean on it?
 

Bigmac

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On a bike you want that pull from low rpm up through the midrange. So you need useable power throughout that range.
On a saw you want that power at the rpm your cutting. I don’t need peak torque at 6,000 rpm on a saw.
Not disagreeing with you that on that at all, and may not be disagreeing at all in general! Just asking questions. I’m kind of more what I was thinking even in a saw is, is having a torque peak at 8-8500 and hp peak at 10k would that be more forgiving? In general I’m usually a humongous fan of a flat torque curve!
 

MustangMike

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You know, I don't know!!! I'm not sure which ones had OEM jugs and which ones had AM jugs, but very likely you are correct and I overlooked this!

I guess it depends on the definition, as my bottom end is Asian also, but if he produced more with an AM jug, I would say he has it!
 

Bigmac

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on a 5 cube saw? thats a pretty tall order in hardwood. even in softwood i would think.
I/we are discussing the dyno numbers and not the saw, at least I am, in terms of pure numbers and effects, and I do realize a saw is involved. A 10hp saw should own a 36” bar, correct? It has 3 more hp than a stock 395. I am playing devil’s advocate, to understand the differences in power delivery on the dyno. Many people feel a 395 will run a 50” bar stock, no such clams with an 066, yet on the dyno a stock 066 edged out the 395 , the 288 Also beats it. Let alone a 10hp saw, should it be able to run a 50” with ease? Or are there other factors? I have several saws that will pull a 36” bar 8 pin and lean on it, they are larger saws, like an old homelite 750, yet I doubt it has 7 hp, it will run a 50” bar, but not with authority. All I am asking is if hp is hp then should it matter? Or do other factors play into it? I can see it both ways with some limits.

I base my opinions on what I know now, if I learn something new my opinions will change!
 

Dub11

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OK I got a list together of the saws I am taking to visit Joe, we may not hav time to do them all, but it should be a fun day in any case.

STOCK AND WOODS PORT SAWS
Nolder pink hybrid TED44
064 Rupley/Nolder/Smitty bilt 064/66 pipe saw - we will see if a belly pipe saw will fit
Redfin MS661 running on Gas
stock 090G*
stock 090*
Zoo City Hybrid
Rita 076 Super Hi Top
EC race built 288 if I can start it*
Ken Dunn/Nolder 394
Miller Mod Saws MS460
XS441
Mofo 026 with and without air filter I hope
Eckhardt 045 AV*
EC 066 Big Bore*
stock 026*
Gypo logger 2100*

RACE SAWS
Helsel/Nolder 181 on muffler and pipe*
EC race built 371xp*
Helsel 3120 on muffler and pipe*
Benny Whitfield 2100*
Nolder 2153 race saw#
Nolder/ec 3410 on muffler and pipe*
Nolder 365 Special#
Nolder Poulan Pro 415#
Nolder 346xp NE Murder XP#
Nolder 026*
Ken Dunn/Jacob J/Nolder 394xp pipe saw

* saws may be for sale
# I will likely be selling one 3 cube and one 5 cube from this group

Wish me luck, hoping to put up some great numbers.
I will try to grab some video or pics so guys at home understand how the process works.

No battery saw?

Someone should test a battery saw.
 

NightRogue

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On a bike you want that pull from low rpm up through the midrange. So you need useable power throughout that range.
On a saw you want that power at the rpm your cutting. I don’t need peak torque at 6,000 rpm on a saw.
I see this argument alot and couldn't help but wonder. Any machinists in the house? I was drilling some truck parts and realised on hard metal you need to feed drill bit at slow speed and high force for fastest cutting, on soft metals you can blast at high speed and the bit wont even care. On hard metals if you go too fast the bit seems like it'll slip and glide rather than cut.

This reminds me off cutting wood hp vs torque, I'd like to see that high hp saw to cut with long bars or mill. I think I'm with @Bigmac on this, high torque and good hp

Sent from my INE-LX2r using Tapatalk
 

Deets066

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I/we are discussing the dyno numbers and not the saw, at least I am, in terms of pure numbers and effects, and I do realize a saw is involved. A 10hp saw should own a 36” bar, correct? It has 3 more hp than a stock 395. I am playing devil’s advocate, to understand the differences in power delivery on the dyno. Many people feel a 395 will run a 50” bar stock, no such clams with an 066, yet on the dyno a stock 066 edged out the 395 , the 288 Also beats it. Let alone a 10hp saw, should it be able to run a 50” with ease? Or are there other factors? I have several saws that will pull a 36” bar 8 pin and lean on it, they are larger saws, like an old homelite 750, yet I doubt it has 7 hp, it will run a 50” bar, but not with authority. All I am asking is if hp is hp then should it matter? Or do other factors play into it? I can see it both ways with some limits.

I base my opinions on what I know now, if I learn something new my opinions will change!
Sure, you can dog it in and get up on that rear handle. But at that point the chain plays a big factor. Will it run a 36” like a 395 or 066?
No it will not. It had a flat torque curve, but it stayed under 6 ft lbs if I remember right.
 

drf256

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Just trying to understand things, but your old hybrid, Which had a very flat torque curve with a slight peek near peak hp, Did you feel that it wanted to maintain RPM at the torque peak or did it feel like it didn’t matter what rpm you were loading the saw it would always pull? Obviously have I have never ran your saw, that’s why I asked. Most of us have ran a saw that had good RPM, but would not maintain the RPM under much load, Just trying to understand how the Dyno relates to real world power curve usage. And how do you feel it would run a long bar, forgetting the Oiler part of it, Really not trying to be controversial just trying to understand things
Deet’s hybrid has so much interest in it because of how it runs and the work put into it.

It’s just an obviously perfect factory 52mm 1128 D chambered jug that allowed the uppers to arrive exactly where Keith wanted them after he did his machine work. Then he did the standard intake and exhaust work and voilá, a saw to be reckoned with that very few compare to. And then there are his lowers, which go against many theories we hold near and dear.

Some saws will just run great with very few mods. That’s the best part of this hobby, the puzzle.

Deet’s saw is a trip to run. IIRC, when we did our 1128 China buildoff at Randy’s, Deets hybrid put the hurtin on all the non-piped saws by a solid 10% faster cut time. It may have been right there with the pipe saw too. It’s just got a mean personality.
 

Sawrain

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As much as anything it is the shape of the torque curve that dictates a saws manners, not absolute numbers, and having a flat torque curve also has a drawback for a chainsaw.

Warning, Opinions inbound.

Flat torque curves give you high power, as they better maintain torque to higher rpms, but the flatter the torque curve the less of a torque boost there is to help maintain RPM when extra load is applied, hitting a knot, bar pinch, shifting extra force onto the bar, etc, effects that can be more pronounced with a longer bar.

A torque curve that drops off more substantially from peak torque to peak horsepower will better self regulate speed than a flat torque curve with minimal user input.

I would use a stock 395 vs 660 chart of the same HP to describe my thoughts, but didn’t see one.

The stock 395 vs SCARR 395 illustrates it well enough though, and I mean NO negativity to any saw, it’s just what happens when you perform these kind of mods.

screenshot_20200609-142808-png.246821


As you can see the ported 395 has a nice flat torque curve leading up to peak power, the stock saw dropping off more rapidly.

The ported saw has more torque everywhere, so it will of course pull the chain harder at all times, it looks like a great machine.

But let’s consider a scenario, both saws cutting at 9400rpm when a very slight bar pinch occurs, More load is placed on the chain, more torque is needed at the sprocket, the chain slows down.

Now let’s say the lightly pinched chain requires 0.2ftlb more torque at the sprocket to match the new load, simply trace the torque chart from the before pinch rpm (9400rpm), add the (load) torque increase that occurred (.2ftlb) and find the new rpm that results, as long as the saw can produce the needed torque figure anyway, and we are talking no adjusting bar/cut pressure, just letting the saw take care of itself.

Stock saw, 3.8ftlb @ 9400rpm to 4.0ftlb, rpm drops to 8750.

Ported saw 6.0ftlb @ 9400rpm to 6.2ftlb, rpm drops to 7200.

While the ported saw will drop more RPM it will still be outcutting the stock saw as it still maintains a power and torque advantage but will some perceive the stock saw to have more torque?due to how easily it deals with deals with load increases, not dropping many rpm.

When operating past peak torque, like we do with a chainsaw flat torque curves do not provide as large a torque reserve to maintain rpm for load increases.

And I imagine the Dyno will show older larger saws that get dyno’d, the ones that love getting dogged in and are described as unstoppable will have far from flat torque curves, that their unstoppable nature is that they have a large torque reserve/increase to give as RPMs are pulled down..

Machining steel, you have to stay within the thermal limits of your cutting tools, an issue we don’t have.
 
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Definitive Dave

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It's
Utt Ohhh … Looks like D Dave is going to challenge my Asian crown with a 066 Big Bore!!!

Should be a great trip Dave, enjoy!
It's an asian kit we built to test how extreme the kit could go. And then we took an OEM new MS660 cylinder that we ruined testing the first batch of CCC Racing pistons (ring tore the plating right off the cylinder), and sent it to Millenium for boring and plating after the porting was redone and it is our beta test dog for the CCC 066 56mm piston.
not exactly an apples to apples comparison with your saw Mike but I am hoping it pulls a really high top RPM
 
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