Stihl LOST the Policy Embargo

[OldJack]

funny story. my aunt lives near san francisco, very close to a private collector of lots of old school military stuff. tanks, big guns, troop carriers etc...he had a french tank that was unique in that it had two drivers, one on each end. the joke was that, of course, the french would make a tank that could run away in both directions
no offense whatsoever to any folks from france, just funny.

An old friend drove a Daimler Armored Car, Canadian 8th Reece 14th Hussars, during WWII. It had a rear steering wheel and view port for the gunner in case they had to get out of Dodge fast

 

[AlfA01]

In the US, the corporations own the political system. Hell, they write their own laws.

I think that's where most of the confusion lies with laws versus policy. When policy and laws align the corporations can do whatever the law allows.

I recall no smoking laws being enforced in California in the mid 90's and many other states followed suit later on. We have just enforced no smoking laws here in Greece from last year.

So, if a guy from Cali came to Greece and said "hey, you can't smoke in bars and restaurants" they'd have told him to GFY. Cali law doesn't apply to other countries.

It'll be interesting to see how Stihl's policy aligns with the laws of North America. I'm guessing it will fall in in with what we've seen from copyright laws.

Artists and musicians could easily file lawsuits for downloaders in the US, but enforcing a US law outside of the US was a lot more difficult, if not impossible.

I think if some of the guys that have gotten letters from Stihl chime in, it would shed some light on what laws Stihl are using to enforce their policies in North Am.

 

[AlfA01]

Shouldn't have to. This decision should cover all stihl dealers; I am no lawyer though. Do you think Stihl wants to shell out millions more in legal fees and fines to get beat in court again? The fines in the US could much higher. I suspect Stihl to change their policy globally effective pronto.



My question, is why would a corporation NOT want their dealers to sell online?

Stihl would lose in court. Hell, everybody has the right to sell online.

I don't expect Stihl to change their policies right away due to pricing according to economies of scale and a country's affluence.

I had a discussion with a guy who lived in Russia on AS some years ago. He could literally buy saws at 40-50% less than what we could.

If the policy changes globally, Stihl dealers in third world countries will drive the market due to lower pricing. Everybody loves a good deal and saving $$$.

Stihl will likely have to raise the price of the saws in those countries due to primary sales being outside the country of origin.

It will hurt the locals for sure, as the price of a saw will likely be unattainable for those people. It's a globalization thing, I guess.

I'm curious how Stihl's warranty policies would shift for internet sales and sales from outside the country of origin? That'll be a cluster fugg for sure.

Brick and mortar guys may not be thrilled to do warranty work on a saw bought online.

 

[Wonkydonkey]

I'm curious how Stihl's warranty policies would shift for internet sales and sales from outside the country of origin? That'll be a cluster fugg for sure.

Brick and mortar guys may not be thrilled to do warranty work on a saw bought online.

Yeh, I remember buying stuff duty free. On the warranty card it stated where it was brought.. and you had no real warranty, and most peeps took a chance.
then there was the International Warranty card.. I don’t recall ever using it for something I brought.
As for chainsaws. Well time will tell..

 

[legdelimber]

Have you ever tried to look at a video (online) and get that message saying you can't see it because of where you are?
Or looking to purchase a DVD and see something about what "region" the disc is for?
Happens with software too.
Read a bit of this to see the how and why....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regional_lockout

Now ask yourself how long it would take claim safety and/or emissions regulations.
Now they can start declaring auto-tronic OPE is region specific and say it can't be sold and shipped to your region because of emissions and safety regulations.

If you think it wont happen? Well then go talk to your brethren in California.
Look at the stories of pro tree guys and their hassles over their equipment.

In another thread, it was mentioned that Stihl is offering ways to track a few new items via your cellphone.
Now ask yourself how small of a step is it to -requiring- "activation"of that auto-tronic OPE through your "smartphone"??
Hell, you had to "activate" that phone didn't ya.
See, you're already being conditioned to it.
(oh and Steve Jobs ghost is so proud of you!)

Hey! Maybe we can start by saying IF the saw is out of bluetooth range that it won't run. (cough, 'cause it's registered to your phone)
..'course We'll just call it an anti-theft feature and only up-charge you $97 extra.
Yeah, that should make it easier for ya to swallow!


Won't cost a laaaarge multinational corp much (amortized per unit) to ad the tiny bit more Digital Rights Management, aka DRM to the OPE and require that region code enforcement and "activation".

And let's not forget the "check engine" light that could be easily added to
the already existing auto-tronics. That start attempts and run time info you guys think looks so cool on the Dealers computer screen is what the check engine light will be switched on by.
Not too hard to set a usage counter that kills the ignition or retards the ignition timing after a (factory)pre-set number of start attempts or run hours.
Been being done (and accepted/tolerated) in computer software for years, just think of all those "free trial" apps you've played with.

Ahhhhh. And all of that Digital Fuel Injection some of you fellows are clamoring for?
Hmm, can't wait to see what "management features" might creep into that new batch of silicon chips.

 

[a. palmer jr.]

I'm sure this has nothing to do with the Chinese cloning Stihl products and others selling them online as OEM Stihl, in violation of a bunch of patent and copyright laws and Stihl just fighting back to try and save what they had.

 

[redline4]

Brick and mortar guys may not be thrilled to do warranty work on a saw bought online.

They likely wouldn't.
We get people coming in all the time to the dealership wanting to warranty their broke/defective/improperly installed GM/ AC Delco parts they bought off Rock auto or Ebay.
They then get pissed when told that we cannot warranty that, as it was sold online. GM policy. Return to place of purchase..
But, if bought from any dealer across north America, no problem, we can warranty that.

 

[Cobby08]

Shouldn't have to. This decision should cover all stihl dealers; I am no lawyer though. Do you think Stihl wants to shell out millions more in legal fees and fines to get beat in court again? The fines in the US could much higher. I suspect Stihl to change their policy globally effective pronto.



My question, is why would a corporation NOT want their dealers to sell online?

Stihl would lose in court. Hell, everybody has the right to sell online.

Because people don't get the service they deserve? Most people on here know what they need, the others do not. Joe blow homeowner goes on and clicky clicky buys a saw based on price with no instruction and goes and buys a saw online and has it shipped to his door.
1) Joe Blow will more than likely not have the tool suited for his job. Whether it be the saw is the wrong unit for what he needs or if he should be contacting a professional. We are to advise users not just throw invoices at them.
2) Joe Blow not knowing start procedure doesn't know how to start unit. Joe gets pissy when saw won't start because of something he did wrong, goes online and bashes product for his f*** up... bad for sales.
3) People are lazy and like simple answers, they come in looking for info and receive it (most of the time). They go online, sometimes even in our parking lot, (ask me how I know, please) and order it online because it was free shipping and 10% off because the online retailer does not have a showroom or the overhead of a brick and mortar store. Amazon is a PRIME (pun intended) example of a company that is going to ruin this world.
4) Keep your business local; Support your local tax base. Yes that is broad to an extent as if you have a chit dealer that doesn't provide what you need or isn't providing service (i.e. pricing breaks, service, etc.)
Should I continue?

Don't even come back with the "oh well they would sell more stuff if they sold online..." no they wouldn't... If I want a MS 462 C-M or a 572 XP I am going to go get that product even if I can't sit home on the couch with my hand in my pants. The more people order online say buying saws, the more they will not be sold on quality parts. That circles back to the bad for sales from bad results of crappy parts.

This isn't an assault at you this is just a reality slap for everyone. Its so easy to buy *s-word online, I get it but its not going to pay off in the long run. We are going to be screwed...

 

[FergusonTO35]

I would be happy if Stihl would at least publish IPL's and sell parts online. If I want to buy anything from a Stihl dealer I have to take off work and make a special trip to do it. Why would I want to own a product that comes with that burden, when I can get IPL's right off the Echo website and have parts sent right to my door? Parts which will probably come from a storefront Echo dealer that does online sales. I can understand Stihl wanting to only sell machines through the dealer, but the parts situation always kills any interest I have in their products.

 

[Cobby08]

I would be happy if Stihl would at least publish IPL's and sell parts online. If I want to buy anything from a Stihl dealer I have to take off work and make a special trip to do it. Why would I want to own a product that comes with that burden, when I can get IPL's right off the Echo website and have parts sent right to my door? Parts which will probably come from a storefront Echo dealer that does online sales. I can understand Stihl wanting to only sell machines through the dealer, but the parts situation always kills any interest I have in their products.

I would agree with this point. I think they were hoping to keep the customer (pro or consumer) more interactive with the dealer but I feel like they have such a percentage of dealers that don't have the experience invested to be involved or don't want to be involved with assisting the customer. It seems like it would be easier for IPL's to be available.

 

[qurotro]

I would be happy if Stihl would at least publish IPL's and sell parts online. If I want to buy anything from a Stihl dealer I have to take off work and make a special trip to do it. Why would I want to own a product that comes with that burden, when I can get IPL's right off the Echo website and have parts sent right to my door? Parts which will probably come from a storefront Echo dealer that does online sales. I can understand Stihl wanting to only sell machines through the dealer, but the parts situation always kills any interest I have in their products.

You can download husky IPL too

 

[NPKenny]

I would be happy if Stihl would at least publish IPL's and sell parts online. If I want to buy anything from a Stihl dealer I have to take off work and make a special trip to do it. Why would I want to own a product that comes with that burden, when I can get IPL's right off the Echo website and have parts sent right to my door? Parts which will probably come from a storefront Echo dealer that does online sales. I can understand Stihl wanting to only sell machines through the dealer, but the parts situation always kills any interest I have in their products.

This is similar to my sentiment, except that I do really like my Stihl saws. A Stihl part often requires TWO daytime trips to the dealer; once to order the part (while hovering over the IPL to get the correct part ordered) and then to return to pick-up the part (after I have often paid for shipping).

I lived in an area with an EXCELLENT dealer when I bought my first saw. Him stepping-me-through the start-up procedure, chain tension, oiler adjustments and chain sharpening was priceless. My hope would be that all new saw owners would get this treatment. This particular dealer also stocked the correct parts to keep his customers' saws going. He has since retired and the local ACE store is a poor replacement.

More importantly, I am American and believe in a free market. If the corporation and dealer desire to establish their business model with limitations, fine. I can freely choose to take my business there or elsewhere. French policy and European sensibility, the whole world over, will never understand what it is to live within the choice, responsibility, and freedom of being an American. Do people truly think Stihl owes them delivery on a product they make. Do folks really feel entitled to purchase someone else's good on their own terms of convenience?

 

[Mastermind]

Because people don't get the service they deserve? Most people on here know what they need, the others do not. Joe blow homeowner goes on and clicky clicky buys a saw based on price with no instruction and goes and buys a saw online and has it shipped to his door.
1) Joe Blow will more than likely not have the tool suited for his job. Whether it be the saw is the wrong unit for what he needs or if he should be contacting a professional. We are to advise users not just throw invoices at them.
2) Joe Blow not knowing start procedure doesn't know how to start unit. Joe gets pissy when saw won't start because of something he did wrong, goes online and bashes product for his f*** up... bad for sales.
3) People are lazy and like simple answers, they come in looking for info and receive it (most of the time). They go online, sometimes even in our parking lot, (ask me how I know, please) and order it online because it was free shipping and 10% off because the online retailer does not have a showroom or the overhead of a brick and mortar store. Amazon is a PRIME (pun intended) example of a company that is going to ruin this world.
4) Keep your business local; Support your local tax base. Yes that is broad to an extent as if you have a chit dealer that doesn't provide what you need or isn't providing service (i.e. pricing breaks, service, etc.)
Should I continue?

Don't even come back with the "oh well they would sell more stuff if they sold online..." no they wouldn't... If I want a MS 462 C-M or a 572 XP I am going to go get that product even if I can't sit home on the couch with my hand in my pants. The more people order online say buying saws, the more they will not be sold on quality parts. That circles back to the bad for sales from bad results of crappy parts.

This isn't an assault at you this is just a reality slap for everyone. Its so easy to buy *s-word online, I get it but its not going to pay off in the long run. We are going to be screwed...

Dammit Mark. Enough with the beating around the bush. Tell us how you really feel.

 

[FergusonTO35]

This is similar to my sentiment, except that I do really like my Stihl saws. A Stihl part often requires TWO daytime trips to the dealer; once to order the part (while hovering over the IPL to get the correct part ordered) and then to return to pick-up the part (after I have often paid for shipping).

This, exactly. Another thing: what if the local stealership is no good to you? As in, you don't spend enough money to get the time of day with them, and/or they just don't like you for some reason? An example: a few years ago, my sister wanted a quality electric weedeater and I agreed to find her one. At the time, one of the Stihl plug in electrics seemed like the best choice. The first two dealers I contacted said they couldn't order just one, it was sold in a case of two and after I bought one the second would just sit there collecting dust on the shelf. I ended up buying it from a dealer in another county that kept them in stock and gave me the impression that they actually wanted my business. I know other people on this forum have had the same experience just trying to get parts for their Stihl products. No wonder chicom bootleg parts that work well enough are so popular!

 

[Evansaw]

In the US, the corporations own the political system. Hell, they write their own laws.

the court case actually as described in the Stihl dealerships letterhead opened the way to Europe and Switzerland.

so once the most neutral country in the world is involved the American case looks not only doable but easier

 

[Lsf]

Hi, my Stihl dealer has said many times that spare parts lists should be freely available on the website. It would increase sales, better customer service and stihl would make more money.

 

[Evansaw]

Not a lawyer, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night (and my daughter married a lawyer).

Case law settled in another country has no bearing on US law or enforcement of said US law. What the court ruled in this case is that the policy that Stihl had in place in the country of the court's jurisdiction, i.e. France, violates the laws of that country.

For the same ruling to be applied to US Stihl dealers or Stihl USA, a suit would have to be filed in US court and adjudicated here. I wouldn't expect Stihl to change anything outside of France and EU countries that share case law rulings unless a suit is filed in other countries and ruled on as in France/EU.

T&Cs - Terms & Conditions - are business agreement between entities that dictate conduct, i.e. sales, pricing, distribution, volume, advertising, supply chain, etc, etc, etc. If Stihl requires that to hold their franchise or dealership, said dealer has to abide by their T&Cs or they get pulled, then as long as the contract is binding and not in violation of case law, you end up where we are.

Everybody (individuals) has the right to sell online. Dealers must abide by the T&Cs in the their contracts with the parent company. This isn't a freedom issue. It's a legalistic contract issue.

Third party country involved already Swiss at the case. So the decision has immediate effect to all EU countries and Swiss. It's not a simple court case and it goes similarly to cartels court cases. Nobody in this world Stihl can win

 

[Evansaw]

I don't expect Stihl to change their policies right away due to pricing according to economies of scale and a country's affluence.

I had a discussion with a guy who lived in Russia on AS some years ago. He could literally buy saws at 40-50% less than what we could.

If the policy changes globally, Stihl dealers in third world countries will drive the market due to lower pricing. Everybody loves a good deal and saving $$$.

Stihl will likely have to raise the price of the saws in those countries due to primary sales being outside the country of origin.

It will hurt the locals for sure, as the price of a saw will likely be unattainable for those people. It's a globalization thing, I guess.

I'm curious how Stihl's warranty policies would shift for internet sales and sales from outside the country of origin? That'll be a cluster fugg for sure.

Brick and mortar guys may not be thrilled to do warranty work on a saw bought online.

There's an official letter cc to all dealerships in Greece to start selling free from internet. Be minded that Stihl Greece is actually Stihl Germany and not an individual importer so that says quite a few things

 

[Hinerman]

Because people don't get the service they deserve? Most people on here know what they need, the others do not. Joe blow homeowner goes on and clicky clicky buys a saw based on price with no instruction and goes and buys a saw online and has it shipped to his door.
1) Joe Blow will more than likely not have the tool suited for his job. Whether it be the saw is the wrong unit for what he needs or if he should be contacting a professional. We are to advise users not just throw invoices at them.
2) Joe Blow not knowing start procedure doesn't know how to start unit. Joe gets pissy when saw won't start because of something he did wrong, goes online and bashes product for his f*** up... bad for sales.
3) People are lazy and like simple answers, they come in looking for info and receive it (most of the time). They go online, sometimes even in our parking lot, (ask me how I know, please) and order it online because it was free shipping and 10% off because the online retailer does not have a showroom or the overhead of a brick and mortar store. Amazon is a PRIME (pun intended) example of a company that is going to ruin this world.
4) Keep your business local; Support your local tax base. Yes that is broad to an extent as if you have a chit dealer that doesn't provide what you need or isn't providing service (i.e. pricing breaks, service, etc.)
Should I continue?

Don't even come back with the "oh well they would sell more stuff if they sold online..." no they wouldn't... If I want a MS 462 C-M or a 572 XP I am going to go get that product even if I can't sit home on the couch with my hand in my pants. The more people order online say buying saws, the more they will not be sold on quality parts. That circles back to the bad for sales from bad results of crappy parts.

This isn't an assault at you this is just a reality slap for everyone. Its so easy to buy *s-word online, I get it but its not going to pay off in the long run. We are going to be screwed...

I didn't take anything you said as an assault on me. Your comments are on point. Some businesses are already screwed. Malls are closing, long standing department stores are closing, mom and pop stores are almost non-existent anymore, etc.

Unfortunately, like it or not, selling online is the way of the future. Actually, it is already here. Companies and businesses will have to make adjustments and get on board or risk losing business/profit, or worse.

 

[BangBang77]

Third party country involved already Swiss at the case. So the decision has immediate effect to all EU countries and Swiss. It's not a simple court case and it goes similarly to cartels court cases. Nobody in this world Stihl can win

Understood.

But US courts do not take direction from EU courts and cases adjudicated in EU courts have no bearing on precedent or case law in the US.