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Wood Chopper

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Did someone say Silver Maple?
2befc128112d0e76ad4860a1ad6a8019.jpg


I have to split this chit this weekend.


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Sawrain

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A saw that does not feel like it looses power when there is a slight decline in RPM will be perceived as having good torque.

The feel, and the actual torque #s do not always jive.

Nice way to term it.

There is a chance some early saws lorded for torque could disappoint if tested for absolute output.
 

drf256

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Torque vs HP.

Torque is the actual kinetic energy an engine can produce. Power is that energy over time.

A torque curve can be shifted in the rpm range. So when one says “torque is lost” they are generally referring to peak torque loss and not necessarily the area under the torque curve (which is what really counts).

Torque has to be present at a given rpm as well for intended engine use. Having more torque at 14000 rpm than 10000 rpm will not allow the end user to utilize the power efficiently because a saw loaded down with a chain in wood will be cutting closer to that 10000 rpm mark.

A good example would be a Buick 455 Stage 1 vs a Chevy 454 LS7 (the real LS7). The Buick made more peak torque at much lower rpm because of its smaller valves and ports. On the street, a Stage 1 would generally beat an LS7 because the torque curve wasn’t in the right place for the LS7 (the street rear end gearing wasn’t optimal either). If you added another 1/8th mile of drag strip, the LS7 would crush the Stage 1. The LS7 made much more power because of the rpm range the torque was present at. Add TA heads and a big cam to the Buick and the bottom end of the motor goes away. I’ve actual done this with a Stage 1 and it’s a real loss of torque where it’s needed.

With saws, big ports and huge durations do the same thing. When one lugs a saw down in wood, a big port will lose velocity faster and in increased amounts over a smaller tighter port. The port needs to be an optimal size and duration for intended use. If anyone remembers JMS saws, he would have huge ports that made brutal peak power, but if you leaned on them a bit too much they would feel like dogs. Jason believed that making every port and tunnel as big as humanly possible, sometimes grinding right through the walls of the jug. One some saws it worked, because the factory ports were pathetic. On most other saws it didn’t really work.

Sorry for the long winded response. The torque vs HP argument is akin to an Oil Thread. It’s never ending.
 

RI Chevy

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Thanks for that description Al.
Would a jms saw show high number on the DYNO? It probably would. Which would correlate to my Dyno/wood test.
 

RI Chevy

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You got your balls busted because sometimes you say dumb *s-word and people like giving you a hard time for it.

It doesn’t really matter how they perform in wood compared to the dyno. This dyno exists so you can see the numbers that your saw produces. I’ve never looked at it as a competition of any sort, it’s to satisfy my curiosity about what I felt

Thank you for the kind words Kevin.
SO question arises does one port a saw to perform good on the Dyno? Or does one port a saw to perform well while cutting trees? Real wood.
For me, skip the Dyno results and give me a strong saw that pulls well while in wood. Real World usage.
Carry on guys. This is a good thread.
 

Red97

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Torque vs HP.

Torque is the actual kinetic energy an engine can produce. Power is that energy over time.

A torque curve can be shifted in the rpm range. So when one says “torque is lost” they are generally referring to peak torque loss and not necessarily the area under the torque curve (which is what really counts).

Torque has to be present at a given rpm as well for intended engine use. Having more torque at 14000 rpm than 10000 rpm will not allow the end user to utilize the power efficiently because a saw loaded down with a chain in wood will be cutting closer to that 10000 rpm mark.

A good example would be a Buick 455 Stage 1 vs a Chevy 454 LS7 (the real LS7). The Buick made more peak torque at much lower rpm because of its smaller valves and ports. On the street, a Stage 1 would generally beat an LS7 because the torque curve wasn’t in the right place for the LS7 (the street rear end gearing wasn’t optimal either). If you added another 1/8th mile of drag strip, the LS7 would crush the Stage 1. The LS7 made much more power because of the rpm range the torque was present at. Add TA heads and a big cam to the Buick and the bottom end of the motor goes away. I’ve actual done this with a Stage 1 and it’s a real loss of torque where it’s needed.

With saws, big ports and huge durations do the same thing. When one lugs a saw down in wood, a big port will lose velocity faster and in increased amounts over a smaller tighter port. The port needs to be an optimal size and duration for intended use. If anyone remembers JMS saws, he would have huge ports that made brutal peak power, but if you leaned on them a bit too much they would feel like dogs. Jason believed that making every port and tunnel as big as humanly possible, sometimes grinding right through the walls of the jug. One some saws it worked, because the factory ports were pathetic. On most other saws it didn’t really work.

Sorry for the long winded response. The torque vs HP argument is akin to an Oil Thread. It’s never ending.

Pretty much what I have been saying in these graphs.

Thanks for that description Al.
Would a jms saw show high number on the DYNO? It probably would. Which would correlate to my Dyno/wood test.

Just depends, some of his early builds were stout. The only ported 372 I've had on was a jms saw over 9hp and over 5ftlb

Thank you for the kind words Kevin.
SO question arises does one port a saw to perform good on the Dyno? Or does one port a saw to perform well while cutting trees? Real wood.
For me, skip the Dyno results and give me a strong saw that pulls well while in wood. Real World usage.
Carry on guys. This is a good thread.

It is possible to have both....
 

drf256

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Pretty much what I have been saying in these graphs.



Just depends, some of his early builds were stout. The only ported 372 I've had on was a jms saw over 9hp and over 5ftlb



It is possible to have both....
“Early” is key word here. He decided to hog all the ports out later in his game.

When he started going huge on ports, his saws wouldn’t 4 stroke at high rpms unless he choked the muffler outlet down. Was a head scratcher initially.

I considered Jason a friend until all the shít went down. His port work was pretty much beautiful, but his machining/fit/finish and most of all integrity left a lot to be desired.
 

NightRogue

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Ya the torque fall off with rpm, 6lbs of torque at 5250 is 6 hp, 6lbs of torque at 10500 rpm is 12hp. A lack of torque at rpm
Completely agree with this statement, we need to build tq at high rpm to make more power. Thats exactly the stuff we need to figure out, i personally feel exhaust port raising is a double edged sword.

You take out more tq than the rpm you add, I'd rather keep exhaust duration low for tq and get rpm from muffler mod, smaller intake/lower intake duration, and upper transfer area/angle/timing. That way more tq is made across the power band, some rpm is made and the saw will pull harder

Sometimes when ported the timing/area will favour high rpms but the carb and everything else cant feed enough to reach that spot, its a balance of everything that achieves max power at the required rpm

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MustangMike

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Well, here is the way I see it. More Hp is better as long as the power band remains wide and not peaky.

Different saws respond to different things.

I got significant gains on my Asian 660 by raising the exhaust a bit, lowering the intake a bit, and making them both as flat and wide as possible.

You can lean on that saw when noodling hardwood, and it holds RPMs well.
 

Woodpecker

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Some of my customers have asked for “spicy” 7900’s and some have asked for a more forgiving saw that they can lean on more. Spicy curves are narrow and high. Forgiving curves are lower and flat. Both are acceptable for a worksaw, depending whatever the owner wants. Even though there is nearly a horsepower difference between the two styles, the spicier one only cuts about 5% faster.

I can definitely corroborate this statement with 7900/10s of both flavors.

SO question arises does one port a saw to perform good on the Dyno? Or does one port a saw to perform well while cutting trees? Real wood.
For me, skip the Dyno results and give me a strong saw that pulls well while in wood. Real World usage.
Carry on guys. This is a good thread.

Jeff I think you've kind of failed to see the forest for the trees a bit here. As entertaining as it is for us non-porters to see the dyno numbers, that really isn't the point of it. It's a porters tool to help them "see" what each incremental change they make does to the "power" of the saw. I think it's going to be especially great for quickly finding the right "recipe" for new models of saws just like the Echo 7310...

It's also fun as an end user to send in a saw and have Joe run it on the dyno so we can also "see" what we are feeling when we run a given saw. However, it's just as pointless to use this tool to brag about how much power saw A has over saw B etcetera, as it would be to hook up a built diesel to a dyno just to brag about hp/tq at the rear wheels.

Edit to add: I agree it is great to see the correlation between dyno numbers and real world cutting via an "in the cut video"..... it's just not the over all point of the thread.
 

MustangMike

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FYI, in the mid 70s my girlfriend's brother had a Buick 455 Stage 1 that was the terror of the local area.

The big race pitted my 68 Mustang GT 390 (which was built) against him, most thought I did not have a chance against it.

The first day we raced, I beat him right from the start to finish 3 times. He tuned the car up and wanted to race me again, and vowed that if he ever got ahead of me I would never catch him.

We raced again the second day, and I blew the hole shot and he got way out ahead of me, but when my motor got into it's power range I blew by him like he was sitting still. That 390 had an aggressive cam and was very fast, and the car was very light. Handicapped by 325 gears and a close ratio tranny, but it got it done just the same.

The good old days!
 
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