What should be the next AM kit saw?

[Spike60]

8 pages and nobody thought to mention AV? For the most part, serious saw users aren't going back 2 generations to hard rubber mounts any more than guys who ran 272's would go back to no mounts at all.

I don't want to come off wrong sounding, but 30 years in the industry gives me a little different perspective here. So, I won't look into other industries, (like motorcycles ; sorry ole buddy), to fill in the blanks. The hobby world that we all enjoy here is just SO different from the real saw world. The whole kit saw thing is fun for you guys, but that is definitely a hobby world thing cause most of you guys have the skills to assemble them. In the real world, most guys don't even clean their air filters. But the kit saws can prove the worth of the Farmer-Tec brand and the quality of their parts. Which brings us to "business case".

Assuming "business case" means the maximum return for the Farmer-Tec folks investment to manufacture this stuff, some of these suggestions while fun for the hobby world would be a huge disappointment to them. And the true volume potential for them is in parts sales, not complete saws, either kits or assembled. So, when they decide to gear up to produce a part, the first question is "how many are we going to sell?"

To answer that, there are a few variables that come into play that need to be considered. How popular was a saw in it's day? How long ago was it produced? What is the field population still in use? Commercial use or homeowner use? What current saw occupies the same market segment? When you separate the nostalgia from the reality it's tough to make a business case for turning back the clock. We are a high volume dealer, so much of my insight here is based on what I see come through the shop and what models have the strongest parts sales.

262 for instance would be a complete flop beyond the hobby world. Hasn't been made for almost 20 years. How many are still in daily use? The 660's that you guys are going bonkers over are recent and still out there in HUGE numbers, and most in daily use. Huge parts sales potential there in the real world. And the 562 is just so good that pro guys just won't even think about a 262. Firewood cutters want to keep them going, but that's it..

Only 2 of the 200 series Huskys might make business sense, but both in a limited fashion. Both have the factor of "being missed" by guys who used to run them.

242 is one. Never been effectively replaced in the Husky line, an no the 543 doesn't hit the target. 242 was so good for bucket work that Husky didn't even need a top handle saw in the lineup. Pro guys loved them and I have a couple customers that want me to make them last as long as possible. But the 242 falls short in the "how many are left" category. So the field population for parts sales is pretty week for the farmer-tec people make an investment there.

288 could work. And a 56mm big bore kit would make it real interesting. Kind of a legend for guys who used to run them. Just a tough saw that took plenty of abuse. 288 owners haven't warmed up to the 385/390 enough that they stop wishing for 288's. But 288's do vibrate more than the 390. I have restored some 288's, and after it's all said and done the guys will say, "oh yeah, they I forgot they vibrated that much". Still a useful saw on the landing or whatever, but the vibes keep it in a limited role vs years ago when it was the saw to have. But a 288 is unique enough that guys will still run them. But in the case of the 272, the 372 is generally considered to be far superior in the serious user world. Still good numbers of 272's out there though, so parts sales for that family are strong.

 

[Onan18]

8 pages and nobody thought to mention AV? For the most part, serious saw users aren't going back 2 generations to hard rubber mounts any more than guys who ran 272's would go back to no mounts at all.

I don't want to come off wrong sounding, but 30 years in the industry gives me a little different perspective here. So, I won't look into other industries, (like motorcycles ; sorry ole buddy), to fill in the blanks. The hobby world that we all enjoy here is just SO different from the real saw world. The whole kit saw thing is fun for you guys, but that is definitely a hobby world thing cause most of you guys have the skills to assemble them. In the real world, most guys don't even clean their air filters. But the kit saws can prove the worth of the Farmer-Tec brand and the quality of their parts. Which brings us to "business case".

Assuming "business case" means the maximum return for the Farmer-Tec folks investment to manufacture this stuff, some of these suggestions while fun for the hobby world would be a huge disappointment to them. And the true volume potential for them is in parts sales, not complete saws, either kits or assembled. So, when they decide to gear up to produce a part, the first question is "how many are we going to sell?"

To answer that, there are a few variables that come into play that need to be considered. How popular was a saw in it's day? How long ago was it produced? What is the field population still in use? Commercial use or homeowner use? What current saw occupies the same market segment? When you separate the nostalgia from the reality it's tough to make a business case for turning back the clock. We are a high volume dealer, so much of my insight here is based on what I see come through the shop and what models have the strongest parts sales.

262 for instance would be a complete flop beyond the hobby world. Hasn't been made for almost 20 years. How many are still in daily use? The 660's that you guys are going bonkers over are recent and still out there in HUGE numbers, and most in daily use. Huge parts sales potential there in the real world. And the 562 is just so good that pro guys just won't even think about a 262. Firewood cutters want to keep them going, but that's it..

Only 2 of the 200 series Huskys might make business sense, but both in a limited fashion. Both have the factor of "being missed" by guys who used to run them.

242 is one. Never been effectively replaced in the Husky line, an no the 543 doesn't hit the target. 242 was so good for bucket work that Husky didn't even need a top handle saw in the lineup. Pro guys loved them and I have a couple customers that want me to make them last as long as possible. But the 242 falls short in the "how many are left" category. So the field population for parts sales is pretty week for the farmer-tec people make an investment there.

288 could work. And a 56mm big bore kit would make it real interesting. Kind of a legend for guys who used to run them. Just a tough saw that took plenty of abuse. 288 owners haven't warmed up to the 385/390 enough that they stop wishing for 288's. But 288's do vibrate more than the 390. I have restored some 288's, and after it's all said and done the guys will say, "oh yeah, they I forgot they vibrated that much". Still a useful saw on the landing or whatever, but the vibes keep it in a limited role vs years ago when it was the saw to have. But a 288 is unique enough that guys will still run them. But in the case of the 272, the 372 is generally considered to be far superior in the serious user world. Still good numbers of 272's out there though, so parts sales for that family are strong.

Well put my friend, I also feel that it would not be worth the companies time to tool up to produce parts for models with such a weak field population. I think the 288 would be a hit, the vibes are no worse than a 660 so pretty straight comparison there. Here is some numbers that I would be interested to know, how many guys switched to 660s when the 288 went away?

I would like to see at least one company do small batch runs of NLA parts (262 cranks, 242 PTO bearings, etc...) It would be nice to at least have the option to not junk an old saw, but again it does not make sense from a volume standpoint.

Joe

 

[Simondo]

8 pages and nobody thought to mention AV? For the most part, serious saw users aren't going back 2 generations to hard rubber mounts any more than guys who ran 272's would go back to no mounts at all.

I don't want to come off wrong sounding, but 30 years in the industry gives me a little different perspective here. So, I won't look into other industries, (like motorcycles ; sorry ole buddy), to fill in the blanks. The hobby world that we all enjoy here is just SO different from the real saw world. The whole kit saw thing is fun for you guys, but that is definitely a hobby world thing cause most of you guys have the skills to assemble them. In the real world, most guys don't even clean their air filters. But the kit saws can prove the worth of the Farmer-Tec brand and the quality of their parts. Which brings us to "business case".

Assuming "business case" means the maximum return for the Farmer-Tec folks investment to manufacture this stuff, some of these suggestions while fun for the hobby world would be a huge disappointment to them. And the true volume potential for them is in parts sales, not complete saws, either kits or assembled. So, when they decide to gear up to produce a part, the first question is "how many are we going to sell?"

To answer that, there are a few variables that come into play that need to be considered. How popular was a saw in it's day? How long ago was it produced? What is the field population still in use? Commercial use or homeowner use? What current saw occupies the same market segment? When you separate the nostalgia from the reality it's tough to make a business case for turning back the clock. We are a high volume dealer, so much of my insight here is based on what I see come through the shop and what models have the strongest parts sales.

262 for instance would be a complete flop beyond the hobby world. Hasn't been made for almost 20 years. How many are still in daily use? The 660's that you guys are going bonkers over are recent and still out there in HUGE numbers, and most in daily use. Huge parts sales potential there in the real world. And the 562 is just so good that pro guys just won't even think about a 262. Firewood cutters want to keep them going, but that's it..

Only 2 of the 200 series Huskys might make business sense, but both in a limited fashion. Both have the factor of "being missed" by guys who used to run them.

242 is one. Never been effectively replaced in the Husky line, an no the 543 doesn't hit the target. 242 was so good for bucket work that Husky didn't even need a top handle saw in the lineup. Pro guys loved them and I have a couple customers that want me to make them last as long as possible. But the 242 falls short in the "how many are left" category. So the field population for parts sales is pretty week for the farmer-tec people make an investment there.

288 could work. And a 56mm big bore kit would make it real interesting. Kind of a legend for guys who used to run them. Just a tough saw that took plenty of abuse. 288 owners haven't warmed up to the 385/390 enough that they stop wishing for 288's. But 288's do vibrate more than the 390. I have restored some 288's, and after it's all said and done the guys will say, "oh yeah, they I forgot they vibrated that much". Still a useful saw on the landing or whatever, but the vibes keep it in a limited role vs years ago when it was the saw to have. But a 288 is unique enough that guys will still run them. But in the case of the 272, the 372 is generally considered to be far superior in the serious user world. Still good numbers of 272's out there though, so parts sales for that family are strong.

Errrr , I think the AV thing was in my post as to the reason I thought the 346 357 "might " be a contender for the masses .
Your logic and observations from the industry perspective over time undoubtedly tells it like it is from the USA market ( a big ass market ).
Walt asked what saw should be the next AM product......I couldnt narrow it down to just 1 as i still dont have a clear idea of who is and where the main market is. I still think there is a chance the 300 group (346-357) would have a place with tree workers as its a saw group "Very "well liked still over here as its not been gone that long .....but vibe tastic ! 200 group may sell well if you think of them as a spare parts supply as well as a saw in a box.
Hell ..a crystal ball might come in handy for me on this one

 

[Czed]

8 pages and nobody thought to mention AV? For the most part, serious saw users aren't going back 2 generations to hard rubber mounts any more than guys who ran 272's would go back to no mounts at all.

I don't want to come off wrong sounding, but 30 years in the industry gives me a little different perspective here. So, I won't look into other industries, (like motorcycles ; sorry ole buddy), to fill in the blanks. The hobby world that we all enjoy here is just SO different from the real saw world. The whole kit saw thing is fun for you guys, but that is definitely a hobby world thing cause most of you guys have the skills to assemble them. In the real world, most guys don't even clean their air filters. But the kit saws can prove the worth of the Farmer-Tec brand and the quality of their parts. Which brings us to "business case".

Assuming "business case" means the maximum return for the Farmer-Tec folks investment to manufacture this stuff, some of these suggestions while fun for the hobby world would be a huge disappointment to them. And the true volume potential for them is in parts sales, not complete saws, either kits or assembled. So, when they decide to gear up to produce a part, the first question is "how many are we going to sell?"

To answer that, there are a few variables that come into play that need to be considered. How popular was a saw in it's day? How long ago was it produced? What is the field population still in use? Commercial use or homeowner use? What current saw occupies the same market segment? When you separate the nostalgia from the reality it's tough to make a business case for turning back the clock. We are a high volume dealer, so much of my insight here is based on what I see come through the shop and what models have the strongest parts sales.

262 for instance would be a complete flop beyond the hobby world. Hasn't been made for almost 20 years. How many are still in daily use? The 660's that you guys are going bonkers over are recent and still out there in HUGE numbers, and most in daily use. Huge parts sales potential there in the real world. And the 562 is just so good that pro guys just won't even think about a 262. Firewood cutters want to keep them going, but that's it..

Only 2 of the 200 series Huskys might make business sense, but both in a limited fashion. Both have the factor of "being missed" by guys who used to run them.

242 is one. Never been effectively replaced in the Husky line, an no the 543 doesn't hit the target. 242 was so good for bucket work that Husky didn't even need a top handle saw in the lineup. Pro guys loved them and I have a couple customers that want me to make them last as long as possible. But the 242 falls short in the "how many are left" category. So the field population for parts sales is pretty week for the farmer-tec people make an investment there.

288 could work. And a 56mm big bore kit would make it real interesting. Kind of a legend for guys who used to run them. Just a tough saw that took plenty of abuse. 288 owners haven't warmed up to the 385/390 enough that they stop wishing for 288's. But 288's do vibrate more than the 390. I have restored some 288's, and after it's all said and done the guys will say, "oh yeah, they I forgot they vibrated that much". Still a useful saw on the landing or whatever, but the vibes keep it in a limited role vs years ago when it was the saw to have. But a 288 is unique enough that guys will still run them. But in the case of the 272, the 372 is generally considered to be far superior in the serious user world. Still good numbers of 272's out there though, so parts sales for that family are strong.

I agree with you completely i guess what makes sense to people that have always fooled with saws like us and know and remember the quality saws of the past wouldn't really sell that well now.
I still wants a good 288 clone most lol.
and i really think a 70 or 72cc echo 590 600 620 quality big bore kit would be a hit

 

[Spike60]

Ooooops. Sorry @Simondo about missing your comment on the AV.

And believe me guy, I'd like a new 288 myself.

 

[afleetcommand]

I still want a 254 and rationalize all kind of reasons for them to be supported....as long as I get my 254!

 

[Onan18]

Ooooops. Sorry @Simondo about missing your comment on the AV.

And believe me guy, I'd like a new 288 myself.

Road trip to Brazil?

 

[Simondo]

Ooooops. Sorry @Simondo about missing your comment on the AV.

And believe me guy, I'd like a new 288 myself.

Well...you had a "lot" to read over the 8 pages so i hope i didnt seem like i was being a smart ass... .
Please, call me Simon .
To coin a phrase from others on this site ...."Horrray 288 !!"

 

[Czed]

Yaay brazil.

 

[Simondo]

I still want a 254 and rationalize all kind of reasons for them to be supported....as long as I get my 254!

Do you have a "Fairy Godmother" in your back pocket !

 

[Spike60]

I still want a 254 and rationalize all kind of reasons for them to be supported....as long as I get my 254!

I guess I could order the parts and you could build your own and save the Farmer-Tec people a ton of wasted development cash.

Crank is NLA, but they do still have cases. Externally, only thing missing is the top cover, but a 257 cover works OK. Just sits a little higher. I have an OEM top end in stock and there's only 3 left down at Husky. Might even have a complete and clean bottom end back in the secret stash too. You should have some intake bits from your pile of stuff, cause little things like the carb bolts are NLA. So, how bad ya want one?

 

[Mattyo]

Bob, Walt reminded me earlier in the thread that this was about what saw we WANT to see in the AM, not which one was most likely. Walt can want whatever he wants, and like you said, how bad does he want one

That said, back to Bob's original comments, I think it is likely these kit saws are almost incidental rather than on purpose. They find out what saws are popular... what parts people are clamoring for, and before ya know it, ya have all the parts necessary to build a saw. What also may be driving it is what other countrys are demanding. If say in Aus or Russia they are finding brand name saws to be completely cost prohibitive... then why not have more kits available. USA is a big market no doubt, but who really is buying the Farmertech stuff here in the US? dealers? I don't think so. that would be an interesting question to have answered.

I live literally right next door to Farmington Valley Equipment. They have got to be one of the largest power equipment dealers and services in the state of CT ... they looked at me funny when I mentioned kit saws. They probably only deal with oem, much like the rest of the dealers in the area.

Question for Bob.... are these 660's etc the first "kit" chainsaws ever available?

 

[Simondo]

Should there be a mention of cost here ?
How much hard cash will a AM saw warrant folks spending for one . Surly they need to be a cheeper "by a margin " option ?
New saws "can" be had for a good price ..Depending on what you go for..

 

[Lightning Performance]

Sometimes a stroker engine will use a shorter rod so they can maintain the same deck height. It gets its longer stroke from the crankshaft.

Ex. 400 SBC 5.65 vs 265-350 5.7

So....Mr. HLSupply helps a bunch of active & verbose online types get kits saws to build and brag about on line........something every one can do. Endless threads and video's documenting the process to follow. A hobby that produces productive tools for a fraction of the typical new saw. And there is a supply point to repeat these mechanical puzzles, and a competition concept every one can participate in? Unlimited online customer service.....cheap replacement parts. Endless "how to threads & videos" and endless opportunities to build saws and tools to show off technical skills...LOL genius! This is going to be a lot of fun.....can I hold the East Coast AM Nationals here at the farm?? Buckle up folks, we are going for a ride.... How can this possibly effect a thing?? But not to fret...Dell and HP still sell complete computers. But what an interesting time for the hobby types now.

Now pressure/vac testing a stubborn 550xp.....CST, something absolutely required to support these saws; says it goes full rich on low speed...and it does. Loads up and Stalls. Error code 13. Initial Vac test showed nothing...and repeating because you always doubt your own work...but yet again it is leak free....now onto other possibilities. Has the latest firmware. New lines for fuel & primer...new tank vent....carb doesn't seem to have any mechanical issues, put a kit in anyway...stumped

Get my point? Both macro & micro? Just a truck driver, just an old man...

Still want my 254's

imo low speed section of the control coil winding shorted or grounded.

All very poignant.....I especially like your focus on #3. The North American, and European markets have definitely hamstrung themselves with the regulatory measures, and the part and parcel "technology advances"......M-tronic, and AutoTune......pshh! Give me back my 1970 K5 Blazer.....

wit 292 top loader an 3.73's MSD updated ign. ;-)

 

[Czed]

Used beat to death 372s bring 350-400+ with unknown issues mine cost right at 212.00 a piece from china so i went that route the parts if i need any are very reasonable they are very attractive for a firewooder like me to mess with.

 

[wcorey]

Bob, your explanation of the practical business aspects of picking a saw to clone sounds reasonable...
But then how to explain the recently added 038/380 kit, particularly when the 440 was already available?

Seems like they opened up the doors to our speculation with that one...

What's the next kit available may be just a matter of looking at the models that have the most parts they already produce.

254 family would be completely from scratch...

The somewhat related 55 would make more practical sense as there's a zillion of them out there. Add a closed port bb P&C (a real one, not the half assed one available now) and that could be a winner all the way around.
Wouldn't even have to reinvent the wheel, just copy the Partner 5500/PP325 jug 'n slug...

 

[Lightning Performance]

Does the saw have to be out of production in your country or all countries as not to copyright infringe?

MS361 with a REAL 50mm jug. I have the rest of the updates covered in AM or OEM parts. This will not be a production 361 but will use all production or AM parts on said saw. The jug would be special and seems like an easy to overcome hurtle these days. It has the best AV IMO of a no longer in USA production Stihl. Basically and 10mil oh44 with updated platform and AV. The saw can handle a 28" bar. What else does one need for a medium saw? That is where the mass market lives 50-70 cc.

The 361 is a different saw than any other 50cc Stihl. It even has mixed AV mounts. They are dependable, relatively light, economical, quad port, narrow and handle very well with a 16"-24" bar. An adjustable easy to modify oil pump, larger mains and medium flywheel. The OEM muffler sucks and so does the air intake, no injection and the filter is too small IMO. The carb is great but again, is too small. The cure for all that has been found. Most of the saw was over engineered to take a beating. This saw seems like a strong case for a Quality AM BB. The current offerings are lacking. The case and flywheel will need to be reworked to clear the transfers.

If AM wrap handlebars were cheap and available...

 

[Mattyo]

Like I said....038....huh????

Likely just a matter of what parts are most popular..then suddenly you have a whole "kit"

I'm really frustrated with saws having 2 different bearings pto and flywheel side....so i'm gonna avoid those models. Ie...that 360 looks cool ...dual 6202s right? 288 has dual 6203s. 200t has dual weird bearings...but at they are the same. 200t 288 next

 

[afleetcommand]

Bob, Walt reminded me earlier in the thread that this was about what saw we WANT to see in the AM, not which one was most likely. Walt can want whatever he wants, and like you said, how bad does he want one

That said, back to Bob's original comments, I think it is likely these kit saws are almost incidental rather than on purpose. They find out what saws are popular... what parts people are clamoring for, and before ya know it, ya have all the parts necessary to build a saw. What also may be driving it is what other countrys are demanding. If say in Aus or Russia they are finding brand name saws to be completely cost prohibitive... then why not have more kits available. USA is a big market no doubt, but who really is buying the Farmertech stuff here in the US? dealers? I don't think so. that would be an interesting question to have answered.

I live literally right next door to Farmington Valley Equipment. They have got to be one of the largest power equipment dealers and services in the state of CT ... they looked at me funny when I mentioned kit saws. They probably only deal with oem, much like the rest of the dealers in the area.

Question for Bob.... are these 660's etc the first "kit" chainsaws ever available?

HA! Bingo...

 

[Lightning Performance]

That is a very good point about bearings. Production cost drop when part numbers ordered double. Plus 620x can be had most places that sell bearings.