What oil is best? and what ratio?

[Powerstroke Cowboy]

50:1 was pretty much a government EPA emissions implementation, nothing more really.

Makes sense. I have also read it wad more to do with manufacturers trying to meet emissions. Either way. It's still because of emissions/trying to run cleaner.

There’s a lot of information out there regarding mix ratios, but it was proven in dirt bike engine testing that 24:1 yielded the most power. After the testing, it was determined that the greater amount of oil provided better ring sealing and higher compression, with less blow-by.

That also makes sense. I wonder what the difference would be in double ring vs single ring setup.

O for a dyno to test with.

Dry cylinder walls don't build compression good. I was looking at a Evinrude v4 115 years ago that they guy said had low compression. It also had sat for alot of years. I asked him to dump some oil in and crank it without the plugs for a bit then check compression again, it went from 50 to 60 psi to 120s or 140s (can't remember exactly ) Needless to say I bought it and it started and ran good.

 

[Squareground3691]

Makes sense. I have also read it wad more to do with manufacturers trying to meet emissions. Either way. It's still because of emissions/trying to run cleaner.



That also makes sense. I wonder what the difference would be in double ring vs single ring setup.

O for a dyno to test with.

Dry cylinder walls don't build compression good. I was looking at a Evinrude v4 115 years ago that they guy said had low compression. It also had sat for alot of years. I asked him to dump some oil in and crank it without the plugs for a bit then check compression again, it went from 50 to 60 psi to 120s or 140s (can't remember exactly ) Needless to say I bought it and it started and ran good.

Yup , companies had to meet EPA regulations, that’s why they specified those ratios.

 

[huskihl]

Makes sense. I have also read it wad more to do with manufacturers trying to meet emissions. Either way. It's still because of emissions/trying to run cleaner.



That also makes sense. I wonder what the difference would be in double ring vs single ring setup.

O for a dyno to test with.

Dry cylinder walls don't build compression good. I was looking at a Evinrude v4 115 years ago that they guy said had low compression. It also had sat for alot of years. I asked him to dump some oil in and crank it without the plugs for a bit then check compression again, it went from 50 to 60 psi to 120s or 140s (can't remember exactly ) Needless to say I bought it and it started and ran good.

Single ring vs 2 have the same compression. The 2nd ring helps transfer more heat from the piston to the cylinder

 

[Powerstroke Cowboy]

Single ring vs 2 have the same compression. The 2nd ring helps transfer more heat from the piston to the cylinder

I understand that. I was more or less refering to friction changes. Just wondering if one would respond better, or if they would be the same. If one would have bigger reaction to less friction. I might just be spitting in the wind.

In my snowmobile I have switched from the factory single ring to double ring for the added heat transfer. The single rings had problems on long hard pulls of over heating and flaking. But, you do loose a little power and faster reving with it.

Might just be useless rambling on my part.

 

[cus_deluxe]

Baby oil- 16:1. lets fight!!

 

[Powerstroke Cowboy]

Baby oil- 16:1. lets fight!!

What? With water in your detox bath?

 

[huskihl]

I understand that. I was more or less refering to friction changes. Just wondering if one would respond better, or if they would be the same. If one would have bigger reaction to less friction. I might just be spitting in the wind.

In my snowmobile I have switched from the factory single ring to double ring for the added heat transfer. The single rings had problems on long hard pulls of over heating and flaking. But, you do loose a little power and faster reving with it.

Might just be useless rambling on my part.

The 2nd ring definitely adds some drag. It’s worth a few hundred rpm with no load

 

[cus_deluxe]

What? With water in your detox bath?

sorry i shouldve clairified. conventional baby oil. none of that fake synthetic stuff.

 

[Roadfxr]

I mixed Schaeffers and Dominator together. My saws got so excited they lubricated them selves….

 

[cus_deluxe]

this guy gets it.

 

[Hundred Acre Wood]

Yup , companies had to meet EPA regulations, that’s why they specified those ratios.

I'm not convinced of this*. I'm not saying the EPA doesn't have a big impact, because we all know they do. I'm just not sure the trend to leaner oil ratios started there. Do you have something that points to the EPA for the leaner ratios?

I ask because other people have said the earliest EPA rules regulating chainsaws were in 1995, but the Stihl 025 manual from 1991 already called for 50:1. Another person said the 038 manual from 1980 also called for 50:1. Now maybe they were just anticipating upcoming regulations as manufacturers sometimes have to do OR maybe the oil mixes were finally getting good enough that they didn't need to use as much to lubricate the engine.

We've come a long way since the days of using SAE 30 at 20:1 as our mix and oil formulations continue to improve...

Edit: EPA regulation on chainsaws started studies in 1990 and were enacted in 1995. https://www.fs.usda.gov/t-d/pubs/html/02511204/02511204.htm


* I'm not starting an oil war. Please don't take it personally. I'm trying to have a legitimate discussion with reasonable adults.

 

[cus_deluxe]

* I'm not starting an oil war. Please don't take it personally. I'm trying to have a legitimate discussion with reasonable adults.

lets fight!!

too late!!!

 

[Hundred Acre Wood]

Single ring vs 2 have the same compression. The 2nd ring helps transfer more heat from the piston to the cylinder

That's interesting. I never considered that. I always thought it was additional compression "backup" for the primary ring as it wore / stuck from use.

 

[cus_deluxe]

I'm not convinced of this*. I'm not saying the EPA doesn't have a big impact, because we all know they do. I'm just not sure the trend to leaner oil ratios started there. Do you have something that points to the EPA for the leaner ratios?

I ask because other people have said the earliest EPA rules regulating chainsaws were in 1995, but the Stihl 025 manual from 1991 already called for 50:1. Another person said the 038 manual from 1980 also called for 50:1. Now maybe they were just anticipating upcoming regulations as manufacturers sometimes have to do OR maybe the oil mixes were finally getting good enough that they didn't need to use as much to lubricate the engine.

We've come a long way since the days of using SAE 30 at 20:1 as our mix and oil formulations continue to improve...



* I'm not starting an oil war. Please don't take it personally. I'm trying to have a legitimate discussion with reasonable adults.

but seriously, it would be an interesting experiment. take a new 572 or whatever and run it on 30 weight and see what happens.

 

[Hundred Acre Wood]

too late!!!

I know, I know. There's no reason to be had when discussing oil. It's the freaking holy wars of stupidity.

But I can always hope.

 

[Loony661]

That's interesting. I never considered that. I always thought it was additional compression "backup" for the primary ring as it wore / stuck from use.

Something to consider is that the ring gap between the 1st and 2nd ring is the same, so the amount of blow-by is also the same. Whatever is getting past the top ring, is also getting past the second ring..

 

[Hundred Acre Wood]

Something to consider is that the ring gap between the 1st and 2nd ring is the same, so the amount of blow-by is also the same. Whatever is getting past the top ring, is also getting past the second ring..

Right. A simple google search now shows me what Kevin is talking about. I just don't tear apart engines like he does so I don't have that perspective. You learn something everyday!

 

[Powerstroke Cowboy]

this guy gets it.

It not your fault my skull has an RC hardness of 100.

I am guilty of just taking what you said and twisting it.

 

[huskihl]

That's interesting. I never considered that. I always thought it was additional compression "backup" for the primary ring as it wore / stuck from use.

Ever tried only running the bottom ring? There’s not much there to help with any added pop

 

[mrxlh]

I'm not convinced of this*. I'm not saying the EPA doesn't have a big impact, because we all know they do. I'm just not sure the trend to leaner oil ratios started there. Do you have something that points to the EPA for the leaner ratios?

I ask because other people have said the earliest EPA rules regulating chainsaws were in 1995, but the Stihl 025 manual from 1991 already called for 50:1. Another person said the 038 manual from 1980 also called for 50:1. Now maybe they were just anticipating upcoming regulations as manufacturers sometimes have to do OR maybe the oil mixes were finally getting good enough that they didn't need to use as much to lubricate the engine.

We've come a long way since the days of using SAE 30 at 20:1 as our mix and oil formulations continue to improve...

Edit: EPA regulation on chainsaws started studies in 1990 and were enacted in 1995. https://www.fs.usda.gov/t-d/pubs/html/02511204/02511204.htm


* I'm not starting an oil war. Please don't take it personally. I'm trying to have a legitimate discussion with reasonable adults.

So what you are saying is you think the Saw manufacturers designed strato saws to fork the consumer and not help Mother Nature?