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Part Three: The Transfer Ports

XP_Slinger

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This is a good discussion.....

Thanks guys.
I'm learning a ton from this. Seems like every time I engage in porting thread I have to re-think a lot of what I thought. In the end, that's what is needed in this game even as a hobbyist. This will never be boring
 

huskyboy

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Now this is just from a outsider looking in, I'm no saw porter. Just a hack who's learning :). But piston design seems to be a big influence on transfers ? Please correct me if I'm wrong. The 930 has a full circle windowed piston while most of the quad port bottom fed huskies have a flat side piston I noticed. The 930's cylinder base near the ports seems to be taken far up the walls as to match the windows in the piston? The huskies on other hand are level with the base. The 930's entrance to the transfers is huge and seems hogged out but if you look at it, it gets much tighter near actual opening. Interesting. And the transfer seems agressively aimed at intake even more so than the few cylinders I've seen inside. They must've wanted the "charge" to have an easy entrance path but get tighter accelerating the flow towards the intake? The 385/390xp run very strong for there displacement, close to the 394/395 while giving up a lot of cc's. They have bottom fed transfers, while the 394/395 don't. Wonder if that is why?
 
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Mastermind

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Now this is just from a outsider looking in, I'm no saw porter. Just a hack who's learning :). But piston design seems to be a big influence on transfers ? Please correct me if I'm wrong. The 930 has a full circle windowed piston while most of the quad port bottom fed huskies have a flat side piston I noticed. The 930's cylinder base near the ports seems to be taken far up the walls as to match the windows in the piston? The huskies on other hand are level with the base. The 930's entrance to the transfers is huge and seems hogged out but if you look at it, it gets much tighter near actual opening. Interesting. And the transfer seems agressively aimed at intake even more so than the few cylinders I've seen inside. They must've wanted the "charge" to have an easy entrance path but get tighter accelerating the flow towards the intake? The 385/390xp run very strong for there displacement, close to the 394/395 while giving up a lot of cc's. They have bottom fed transfers, while the 394/395 don't. Wonder if that is why?

It's cool for me to see someone as young and intelligent as you being so engaged and observant.

If you get interested in doing port work let me know. I'll help find you some tools.
 

Redfin

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Ever study a plane's wing? How bout a birds? How bout the cross section of an upper transfer?

What happens when the same amount of flow happens over a large and small radius at the same time?

LIFT
This is why along with better direction I feel the quads "usually" perform better. The smaller tunnels have less variation through the curve than duals.

This is how I would imagine the air feeding through a bore fed dual. The faster air at the bridge would hit the piston first, causing turbulence right at the port opening.IMG_2261.JPG
 

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This is why along with better direction I feel the quads "usually" perform better. The smaller tunnels have less variation through the curve than duals.

This is how I would imagine the air feeding through a bore fed dual. The faster air at the bridge would hit the piston first, causing turbulence right at the port opening.View attachment 68669
Just spit ballin here...Wouldn't that turbulence occur regardless of transfer design during blow down before the transfers open? Even in quads the air will be moving faster at the bridge. I don't necessarily think the turbulence caused by meeting the piston is a bad thing because pressure should be building at that point for the initial shot into the cylinder. I really like your illustration, got me thinking about a new aspect of transfers.
 
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paragonbuilder

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This is why along with better direction I feel the quads "usually" perform better. The smaller tunnels have less variation through the curve than duals.

This is how I would imagine the air feeding through a bore fed dual. The faster air at the bridge would hit the piston first, causing turbulence right at the port opening.View attachment 68669

Is that your coffee cup John?


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Mastermind

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When I started messing with saws very few people were doing machine work. Those that were did pop-up pistons mostly. So the cool thing to do was make more compression.

Looking back, I think I may have gotten carried away. lol

I did the same thing with bridge and finger ports, and short durations, and....well you get the picture.

I don't post much about new things I'm doing, mostly because I don't want people following my lead without fully investigating the outcome.

These days I'm more interested in building the perfect work saw rather than the fastest saw.
 

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I'm stuck on piston type with relation to transfer action right now. Why couldn't a windowed piston be used in a saw that is designed with a non-windowed? Bear with me...A window piston creates a flow (I think) that's quite unique in that the compressing intake charge never stops moving because it never hits the wall of the piston before the transfers open because of the windows, kind of a loop. So if the charge never stops, then no turbulence is created while the charge is waiting for the port to open and it's already moving just waiting for a new path to travel. Just wondering Guys. Terrible drawing may not help illustrate what I'm thinking.IMG_0638.JPG
 

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This phenomenon has me thinking lately how I can incorporate it into a cylinder...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tubercle_effect


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What that article isn't telling you is that the divots induce spin (vorticies), which help stir up the boundary layer (stagnate air near the surface) into the free stream (high velocity). Thus the boundary layer is decreased, the drag is decreased, and the flow will stay attached (avoiding stall) at higher angles of attack.

If you really want to boggle your mind look up F1 vortex generators and see how they use little fins on all sorts of surfaces to effect things down stream. They are not used just on the front wing, but everywhere. Those air fairies get crazy.

Big transfers, why do they work for some and not others? There is a lot that goes into it other than just hogging em out. Direction of flow should start at the lowers and follow that shape and line all the way through tThe tract into the upper. I think that the entire port needs to be reshaped as a funnel which is not easy to do and takes a long time. If done right I believe they can work for some saws and some applications

I think the key to utilizing big transfers is of course balancing the intake and exhaust time accordingly but also paying a lot of attention to aiming the fresh charge into the cylinder to maximize the loop scavenging effect. Since fluids don't take kindly to being steered the aiming has to happen through the whole port, the 930 cylinder is a very good example. When I widen a transfer it's often just towards the exhaust side, maybe a little on the lower and under the bridge on the intake side to create a better funnel. It does take a long time to do, I'll often have 2 hours of grinding on just the transfer on some cylinders.

I like to imagine that the pressure inside the case is pushing a large volume of air into the transfer ports very abruptly, so smoothing and creating a larger inlet helps create a more laminar flow. Now we need to gently squeeze that volume down, increasing the velocity without getting into the transition zone to turbulent flow or cause a large growth in the boundary layer, both which are very detrimental to mass flow; this is choked flow, increase in pressure differential (RPM in this case) will not gain much in mass flow. The main squeezing happens under the bridge to about mid of the upper corner and will increase the velocity of the air, which according to Venturi's principle will reduce the pressure. With the increased velocity and hopefully very attached, straight flow there should be a nice jet stream into the stagnate exhaust gasses in the cylinder. The jet will slice the exhaust gasses right off the piston crown and crash into the intake wall. Then pool and climb the intake wall essentially filling the intake side half of the cylinder first while the remaining exhaust is forced out on the other side (loop scavenging).

Aiming and staggering the timing of the transfer port opening helps reduce tumbling inside the cylinder which will decrease the amount of exhaust gasses that are remixed into the fresh charge.

Quad ports have an advantage over duals because the divider wall provides more flow stability. The divided area helps correct any tumbling or rotation in the flow created by the inlet that might be carried in the center mass of the dual port. Essentially its a vain to help keep the flow in the laminar region.

Excellent example of what we're talking about. I never thought to start "aiming" the charge in the lowers. Brings up my next thought. Since most, not all of the flow is concentrated on the outside of the port I think shaving the inner bridge material down some would aid in reducing turbulence in the turn. How much is too much with reference to maintaining velocity? I don't know, but in my worthless opinion I think there are gains that can be found. To me, the more the path can be smoothed out the better. As long as velocity remains adequate.

I don't think grinding on the bridge will get you much. In 4 stroke porting terms you could consider that the "short side", which as a general rule you don't spend much time there because you'll probably only create a loss. Here, due to the corner, the flow is probably going to become detached and there is most likely already a tumbling pocket of air. Grinding here will only increase the pocket and the losses in free stream velocity and mass flow associated with that.

Your best bet to reduce the loss due to the corner is to increase the corner radius and create a larger straight section after the corner to regain stable flow. Grinding on the outside of the corner and up from the bridge to reduce the entrance angle will do this. But, the increase in length of the port alters the timing of the pulse, the added flow potential could counter acts this, but still transfer port timing may need to be different than what you used before for smaller ports.
 

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I'm stuck on piston type with relation to transfer action right now. Why couldn't a windowed piston be used in a saw that is designed with a non-windowed? Bear with me...A window piston creates a flow (I think) that's quite unique in that the compressing intake charge never stops moving because it never hits the wall of the piston before the transfers open because of the windows, kind of a loop. So if the charge never stops, then no turbulence is created while the charge is waiting for the port to open and it's already moving just waiting for a new path to travel. Just wondering Guys. Terrible drawing may not help illustrate what I'm thinking.View attachment 68679

There wouldn't be much, if any, flow through the transfer ports when the piston is above them because the pressure on both sides of the port are almost equal being as they are both open to the case. If anything, the piston would create a slight high pressure zone right under it which would maybe cause a slight amount of flow through the transfer ports towards the case.
 

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What that article isn't telling you is that the divots induce spin (vorticies), which help stir up the boundary layer (stagnate air near the surface) into the free stream (high velocity). Thus the boundary layer is decreased, the drag is decreased, and the flow will stay attached (avoiding stall) at higher angles of attack.

If you really want to boggle your mind look up F1 vortex generators and see how they use little fins on all sorts of surfaces to effect things down stream. They are not used just on the front wing, but everywhere. Those air fairies get crazy.



I think the key to utilizing big transfers is of course balancing the intake and exhaust time accordingly but also paying a lot of attention to aiming the fresh charge into the cylinder to maximize the loop scavenging effect. Since fluids don't take kindly to being steered the aiming has to happen through the whole port, the 930 cylinder is a very good example. When I widen a transfer it's often just towards the exhaust side, maybe a little on the lower and under the bridge on the intake side to create a better funnel. It does take a long time to do, I'll often have 2 hours of grinding on just the transfer on some cylinders.

I like to imagine that the pressure inside the case is pushing a large volume of air into the transfer ports very abruptly, so smoothing and creating a larger inlet helps create a more laminar flow. Now we need to gently squeeze that volume down, increasing the velocity without getting into the transition zone to turbulent flow or cause a large growth in the boundary layer, both which are very detrimental to mass flow; this is choked flow, increase in pressure differential (RPM in this case) will not gain much in mass flow. The main squeezing happens under the bridge to about mid of the upper corner and will increase the velocity of the air, which according to Venturi's principle will reduce the pressure. With the increased velocity and hopefully very attached, straight flow there should be a nice jet stream into the stagnate exhaust gasses in the cylinder. The jet will slice the exhaust gasses right off the piston crown and crash into the intake wall. Then pool and climb the intake wall essentially filling the intake side half of the cylinder first while the remaining exhaust is forced out on the other side (loop scavenging).

Aiming and staggering the timing of the transfer port opening helps reduce tumbling inside the cylinder which will decrease the amount of exhaust gasses that are remixed into the fresh charge.

Quad ports have an advantage over duals because the divider wall provides more flow stability. The divided area helps correct any tumbling or rotation in the flow created by the inlet that might be carried in the center mass of the dual port. Essentially its a vain to help keep the flow in the laminar region.



I don't think grinding on the bridge will get you much. In 4 stroke porting terms you could consider that the "short side", which as a general rule you don't spend much time there because you'll probably only create a loss. Here, due to the corner, the flow is probably going to become detached and there is most likely already a tumbling pocket of air. Grinding here will only increase the pocket and the losses in free stream velocity and mass flow associated with that.

Your best bet to reduce the loss due to the corner is to increase the corner radius and create a larger straight section after the corner to regain stable flow. Grinding on the outside of the corner and up from the bridge to reduce the entrance angle will do this. But, the increase in length of the port alters the timing of the pulse, the added flow potential could counter acts this, but still transfer port timing may need to be different than what you used before for smaller ports.
Hmmm...
Air Fairies..

like-button.jpg
 

merc_man

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I think this was an ausome idea from mastermind to do these threads in different parts. This way if we need to learn about one thing we dont have to read through hundred of post before we get to what we need.


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Mastermind

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When all is done I'll have Bruce make a section for these threads so they can be accessed easily.

Excellent posts guys. Really great stuff. I love that we all "get" that there is no single way to do this stuff.

Thank you all for contributing.

And........please don't stop asking questions.
 
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