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Part 8: The Stratified Chainsaw

huskihl

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The piston traveling up once the transfers close creates a negative pressure. The top of the piston cut-out opens to the transfer ports at the same time (but you can’t see it) the bottom of the piston skirt opens the intake port. Fresh air gets sucked into the piston port and back into the upper transfers at the same time the case is filling with an overly rich fuel/air charge. Once the piston is on its way down the 2 layers are then pushed up through the transfers when they crack open above the piston. Some of the air ahead of the fresh charge purges out the exhaust and some is left inside to combust the richer charge from below.


In a nutshell
 

farminkarman

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The piston traveling up once the transfers close creates a negative pressure. The top of the piston cut-out opens to the transfer ports at the same time (but you can’t see it) the bottom of the piston skirt opens the intake port. Fresh air gets sucked into the piston port and back into the upper transfers at the same time the case is filling with an overly rich fuel/air charge. Once the piston is on its way down the 2 layers are then pushed up through the transfers when they crack open above the piston. Some of the air ahead of the fresh charge purges out the exhaust and some is left inside to combust the richer charge from below.


In a nutshell
Couldn’t have said it better!
 

farminkarman

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What other designs are you referring to?
I think I have heard it referred to as delayed scavenging. The design uses longer transfer tunnels and a relatively short blowdown. The short blowdown allows for some spent gases to enter the transfers before the case pressure gets high enough to push the charge into the the cylinder. Similar to a strato engine, there ideally is a layer of spent gases pushing the remaining exhaust out of the cylinder before the fresh air/fuel charge can escape the exhaust port. The longer transfer tunnels prevent spent combustion gases from getting into the crankcase. I recently rebuilt a Stihl Ms271 that used this approach. Interestingly enough, early MS271’s were a regular strato saw like a 261...not sure when Stihl ditched the strato on these.
 

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The piston traveling up once the transfers close creates a negative pressure. The top of the piston cut-out opens to the transfer ports at the same time (but you can’t see it) the bottom of the piston skirt opens the intake port. Fresh air gets sucked into the piston port and back into the upper transfers at the same time the case is filling with an overly rich fuel/air charge. Once the piston is on its way down the 2 layers are then pushed up through the transfers when they crack open above the piston. Some of the air ahead of the fresh charge purges out the exhaust and some is left inside to combust the richer charge from below.


In a nutshell

Well done my friend. Even I understood that.
 

huskihl

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I think I have heard it referred to as delayed scavenging. The design uses longer transfer tunnels and a relatively short blowdown. The short blowdown allows for some spent gases to enter the transfers before the case pressure gets high enough to push the charge into the the cylinder. Similar to a strato engine, there ideally is a layer of spent gases pushing the remaining exhaust out of the cylinder before the fresh air/fuel charge can escape the exhaust port. The longer transfer tunnels prevent spent combustion gases from getting into the crankcase. I recently rebuilt a Stihl Ms271 that used this approach. Interestingly enough, early MS271’s were a regular strato saw like a 261...not sure when Stihl ditched the strato on these.
This is the general idea on the 461, 661, and 500i as well
 

huskihl

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Yeah....but it seems like a magic that I can't comprehend.
I believe it has something to do with the V shaped uppers that we turn into —— or —_ shape. I think the tip of the primary V opens up and some exhaust enters there first. Which pressurizes the secondaries

More voodoo
 

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The piston traveling up once the transfers close creates a negative pressure. The top of the piston cut-out opens to the transfer ports at the same time (but you can’t see it) the bottom of the piston skirt opens the intake port. Fresh air gets sucked into the piston port and back into the upper transfers at the same time the case is filling with an overly rich fuel/air charge. Once the piston is on its way down the 2 layers are then pushed up through the transfers when they crack open above the piston. Some of the air ahead of the fresh charge purges out the exhaust and some is left inside to combust the richer charge from below.


In a nutshell
When the piston is moving up I am still seeing a negative pressure before the transfers close and the strato ports are sucking in air first, then once the piston moves further up past this point the standard intake port sucks in the fuel/air charge.
This is where I’m curious, what effect does raw fresh air coming in from the strato ports first to the crankcase have on the fuel mixture that comes in second
 

huskihl

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When the piston is moving up I am still seeing a negative pressure before the transfers close and the strato ports are sucking in air first, then once the piston moves further up past this point the standard intake port sucks in the fuel/air charge.
This is where I’m curious, what effect does raw fresh air coming in from the strato ports first to the crankcase have on the fuel mixture that comes in second
You see the cutouts in the piston through the strato ports open first, but nothing happens until the top of the piston cutout meets the bottom of the upper transfers. This is the part you can’t see. And it happens at the same time the intake port starts to open, unless the intake timing has been modified.

The fresh air doesn’t make it into the case, only a little ways down into the transfers. And it starts entering through the uppers at the same time that the intake opens to let charge into the bottom
 

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I believe it has something to do with the V shaped uppers that we turn into —— or —_ shape. I think the tip of the primary V opens up and some exhaust enters there first. Which pressurizes the secondaries

More voodoo

Very interesting. I've not considered that.
 

Lightning Performance

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Ol' sausage fingers about nailed it, twice :campeon:

The reason I posted the WiKi link was to help people understand the process of the layer stacking and voodoo gas charge pressure coming off the last power cycle. This a three layer transfer port stack comprised of hot spent exhaust, warm fresh air for a buffer to lean out the third and following cool overly rich fuel mix near 10-1. Last two are a couple and mix well together. The first two are devoted enemies like having a chit ex.

Most people are never going to understand this triple action stacking process happening unless they can see the transfers all opened up like a five series Husky or something with removable covers. Even then the slotted piston that is the key to it all working just gets overlooked I'd guess. A basic geometry lesson, some sketches on paper and arrows sketched for flow direction helps most people pick it up.

To me the most critical part in these engines is the the exhaust event and case dwell time. As stated when doing machine work the strato timing will be chasing the intake duration down at about the same rate based on the piston position. Too early coming on to the gas transfer and you might be ok. Too late and you have no pressure left to charge the transfers and add to the case pressure. When it does reverse direction and drag the fuel charge behind it the weak shot from low case times and high exhaust is not going to clear the spent gasses properly.... like a gun with not enough port pressure, things get weak. A weak dirty mix ain't what they were after. Reused exhaust is the second thing to leave behind the regular exhaust. So then the fresh air rolls over with the mix and pushes out all the hot bs as it passes the combustion chamber area. Maybe you forget about the thermal separation between leading fronts... I didn't.

The temps matter and this where the layer stacking occurs so neatly and leans out the incoming fresh charge while helping to kick out the old hot chit.

Best I'll ever do in print.
and... gfy
 

drf256

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I believe it has something to do with the V shaped uppers that we turn into —— or —_ shape. I think the tip of the primary V opens up and some exhaust enters there first. Which pressurizes the secondaries

More voodoo
Always wondered if it was a way of directing charge more than pressurizing, or whether they figured out which portion of the incoming charge is most apt to be siphoned out the exhaust port. Certainly the design isn’t a casting flaw.
 

kneedeepinsaws

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Ol' sausage fingers about nailed it, twice :campeon:

The reason I posted the WiKi link was to help people understand the process of the layer stacking and voodoo gas charge pressure coming off the last power cycle. This a three layer transfer port stack comprised of hot spent exhaust, warm fresh air for a buffer to lean out the third and following cool overly rich fuel mix near 10-1. Last two are a couple and mix well together. The first two are devoted enemies like having a chit ex.

Most people are never going to understand this triple action stacking process happening unless they can see the transfers all opened up like a five series Husky or something with removable covers. Even then the slotted piston that is the key to it all working just gets overlooked I'd guess. A basic geometry lesson, some sketches on paper and arrows sketched for flow direction helps most people pick it up.

To me the most critical part in these engines is the the exhaust event and case dwell time. As stated when doing machine work the strato timing will be chasing the intake duration down at about the same rate based on the piston position. Too early coming on to the gas transfer and you might be ok. Too late and you have no pressure left to charge the transfers and add to the case pressure. When it does reverse direction and drag the fuel charge behind it the weak shot from low case times and high exhaust is not going to clear the spent gasses properly.... like a gun with not enough port pressure, things get weak. A weak dirty mix ain't what they were after. Reused exhaust is the second thing to leave behind the regular exhaust. So then the fresh air rolls over with the mix and pushes out all the hot bs as it passes the combustion chamber area. Maybe you forget about the thermal separation between leading fronts... I didn't.

The temps matter and this where the layer stacking occurs so neatly and leans out the incoming fresh charge while helping to kick out the old hot chit.

Best I'll ever do in print.
and... gfy
Wow that gives me some good insight and I had no idea how the exhaust played a role in the layering. Then again still trying to grasp the layering principle, thanks for that info!!!
How do temps matter? Do you mean the temp of the engine? Or the temp of the exhaust?
 

farminkarman

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Wow that gives me some good insight and I had no idea how the exhaust played a role in the layering. Then again still trying to grasp the layering principle, thanks for that info!!!
How do temps matter? Do you mean the temp of the engine? Or the temp of the exhaust?
The temperature difference between the spent gases and incoming charge also contributes to layering.
 

Stump Shot

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You see the cutouts in the piston through the strato ports open first, but nothing happens until the top of the piston cutout meets the bottom of the upper transfers. This is the part you can’t see. And it happens at the same time the intake port starts to open, unless the intake timing has been modified.

The fresh air doesn’t make it into the case, only a little ways down into the transfers. And it starts entering through the uppers at the same time that the intake opens to let charge into the bottom

So the fifty dollar question, is there any power to be gained by adding more duration to the stratos?
I've left them alone and I have kept up with the other changes in port timing and haven't seen any discernable difference. Not having enough of, or too much time in-between doing a certain model hampers this for me.
 

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Wow that gives me some good insight and I had no idea how the exhaust played a role in the layering. Then again still trying to grasp the layering principle, thanks for that info!!!
How do temps matter? Do you mean the temp of the engine? Or the temp of the exhaust?
Nothing to do with the engine. Just talking about temperature changes on a large scale like blow torch heat vs room temperature. They tend not to mix and create boundary layers like water does when on the move. Both carrying velocity and liquid suspensions with great force.
Thermalcline or incline, idk for sure about the correct terms.
Basically think of it like water with temperature layers not unlike large ocean currents stacked and layered regardless of direction. Off my immediate coastline we have double stacked currents with eddies along the canyons that taught me a lot about how water works in large cycles in ocean environments. Just study your daily fishing charts for structure and charted daily water temps. Some of this can be likened to air flow with thermal layers.
Understanding the dynamics is one thing but the terminology is something best left to the pros, not me. Well, what I see in my minds eye, matters. If you can not picture it you won't understand it. Hard facts and rules apply to things people aren't even looking at. You'll get there eventually. Doc will pick up on this and dig in I'd bet. Increase your boundary layer inside the transfers in the right places saves gas. Screw it up and you'll wish you didn't. The the side effects are going to be a dirty mix charge and more exhaust emissions. Worse case is you make more NOx with it. Never a good thing to lose power while seeking more.
 

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So the fifty dollar question, is there any power to be gained by adding more duration to the stratos?
I've left them alone and I have kept up with the other changes in port timing and haven't seen any discernable difference. Not having enough of, or too much time in-between doing a certain model hampers this for me.

I've tried everything at one time or another. So helped, some not so much. I've finally realized that when you combine the strato windows, and the intake width, you end up with over 100% of the bore diameter in area/width. That's a big deal. Yeah.....the stratos are used to purge, but there is still volume that contributes to the overall picture. With that in mind, I just began to look for gains in other places.
 
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