Echo cs 590,600,620 porting/mod/build thread

[Ronie]

Here's how I did my wheel, 1 bolt, 2 washers, 1 nut and a cheap chuck off Amazon.

 

[Nutball]

I use either a broad radius curved edge scalpel or a 1/4" flat razor sharp wood chisel for removing base gaskets. I prefer the flat chisel. It can be hard to get the gasket off, it just takes time. Just know if you take the piston off, it can be quite challenging to get back on because the washers on each side of the piston bearing have nothing to hold them in place while you put the pin back in. But the pin won't go in very easily at all unless the piston is hot, posing another challenge. Not every saw that needs the exhaust raised needs the intake lowered, but the 590 does like more duration in both areas.

 

[Cerberus]

You’ll want to forget tinman and ironhorse. It’s pretty hard for the uninformed to tell the difference, but many YouTube porters don’t know exactly what they are doing. I just watched a guy by the name of bayou country saws put a degree wheel on a saw completely wrong and act like it was the defacto way to do it. Lots of bad info out there in video land. Itonhorse and tinman are generally regarded as hacks around here. Stick to the info you find here and you won’t go wrong with this saw. Hit up @Red97 as he is the one who started this thread. And don’t be afraid to keep asking questions.

Any youtubers you'd recommend? Thanks for the support Re asking here, am quite happy to be 'asking on-the-fly' here as I do it because as mentioned I was just gonna copy tinman's but reading what I have I am going to do the intake as well (any reason to choose grinding the piston skirt, instead of the intake window? Or doing both, instead of just one?) Had been bothering me IE the idea of opening-up the cylinder's "dumping ability" via exhaust-roof, w/o doing something to 'balance it' Re incoming charge, and simply widening transfers didn't feel like enough so am adding intake-floor-reduction to today's work-order ;D

Currently 'polishing off' the rough-job I did, raised the exhaust ceiling by about 20% of the stock exhaust-port-height (again was going off video/imagery not a wheel!) which is about 70% of what the tinman portjob did. Will do an increase to the intake floor that's about 50% as-aggressive as that (unless told otherwise...feel like my "% of original port size" numbers won't get taken seriously here, I know WHY but surely they still convey what I'm doing ;P)

Here's how I did my wheel, 1 bolt, 2 washers, 1 nut and a cheap chuck off Amazon.

View attachment 309358 View attachment 309359

Any tips on removing a chuck from a drill? I could make one right now if I knew how, I have the sacrifice drill, just not looking to pop cut-off wheels carving-into the drill to tear it apart (and of course the old factory screws just stripped-out when I tried proper dissection )

It's not too late for me to time this, I have very accurate #'s (in MM's) and pics so, once I have a wheel on, I can deduce my OEM numbers as well as post-porting.

I use either a broad radius curved edge scalpel or a 1/4" flat razor sharp wood chisel for removing base gaskets. I prefer the flat chisel. It can be hard to get the gasket off, it just takes time. Just know if you take the piston off, it can be quite challenging to get back on because the washers on each side of the piston bearing have nothing to hold them in place while you put the pin back in. But the pin won't go in very easily at all unless the piston is hot, posing another challenge. Not every saw that needs the exhaust raised needs the intake lowered, but the 590 does like more duration in both areas.

LOL I was outside looking at it, thinking along those lines and, before going to find a chisel, thought to come google - glad I checked here first ;D Time to finish the exhaust port (smooth it), then lower the intake a lil (added-on / unplanned!), unsure if I'm even going to touch the transfers because I had plans to do the casing portion too and am now feeling unprepared to do that optimally, think all transfer work is going to round-2 unless there's any "gimme's" someone knows of here, but not gonna dog-out the cylinder side of the lowers only to leave their matching casing-portions untouched!

So rough...but about on-point so am not gonna go further it's around 95%+ to the line I'd aimed for, figure I'll probably shave another few % just smoothing this mess

 

[Ronie]

Any tips on removing a chuck from a drill?

 

[Woodpecker]

Any youtubers you'd recommend? Thanks for the support Re asking here, am quite happy to be 'asking on-the-fly' here as I do it because as mentioned I was just gonna copy tinman's but reading what I have I am going to do the intake as well (any reason to choose grinding the piston skirt, instead of the intake window? Or doing both, instead of just one?) Had been bothering me IE the idea of opening-up the cylinder's "dumping ability" via exhaust-roof, w/o doing something to 'balance it' Re incoming charge, and simply widening transfers didn't feel like enough so am adding intake-floor-reduction to today's work-order ;D

Currently 'polishing off' the rough-job I did, raised the exhaust ceiling by about 20% of the stock exhaust-port-height (again was going off video/imagery not a wheel!) which is about 70% of what the tinman portjob did. Will do an increase to the intake floor that's about 50% as-aggressive as that (unless told otherwise...feel like my "% of original port size" numbers won't get taken seriously here, I know WHY but surely they still convey what I'm doing ;P)


Any tips on removing a chuck from a drill? I could make one right now if I knew how, I have the sacrifice drill, just not looking to pop cut-off wheels carving-into the drill to tear it apart (and of course the old factory screws just stripped-out when I tried proper dissection )

It's not too late for me to time this, I have very accurate #'s (in MM's) and pics so, once I have a wheel on, I can deduce my OEM numbers as well as post-porting.


LOL I was outside looking at it, thinking along those lines and, before going to find a chisel, thought to come google - glad I checked here first ;D Time to finish the exhaust port (smooth it), then lower the intake a lil (added-on / unplanned!), unsure if I'm even going to touch the transfers because I had plans to do the casing portion too and am now feeling unprepared to do that optimally, think all transfer work is going to round-2 unless there's any "gimme's" someone knows of here, but not gonna dog-out the cylinder side of the lowers only to leave their matching casing-portions untouched!

So rough...but about on-point so am not gonna go further it's around 95%+ to the line I'd aimed for, figure I'll probably shave another few % just smoothing this mess
View attachment 309363View attachment 309364

no idea on the YouTubers. The problem with that medium is, for a beginner, it’s difficult to discover what is bs and what will actually work. The content creator has ultimate control over his/her channel, and can delete any comment that might point out anything fishy they may be passing off as kosher.

if I was you I’d have a look around the porting theory links in this thread here:

https://opeforum.com/threads/chainsaw-porting-thread-links.16583/

 

[Cerberus]

Are those links in-order? I've actually already been perusing them, and if you think youtube is bad for beginners.... youtubes at least gave me enough understanding to be able to read those threads linked in that url! Have been going them in no particular order, wish they had summations at the beginnings of the many, many page-long threads (lotta "separating wheat from chaff" in those threads, though the main OP posts and their general quality is still the best i've found) Had been going through those "alongside" the 590-platform threads as those were teaching me about as much, only specific to the 590.

Do you guys wait a full 24hrs for Motoseal or just overnight? Will be ITCHING to start the engine tomorrow morning ROFL, the compression feels a lil stronger which I initially smiled at but now worry about because I didn't do anythign that'd boost compression (I did lower the cylinder a lil but my increase to the exhaust roof was of greater magnitude, which I'm pretty sure means a net loss of compression..)

Did a new muff mod too, focused on using echo's OEM design (just made it way higher flow) and 'ported' the back of the muffler to match the outward-flaring angles of the exhaust port, cannot wait to turn this on am gonna be so pissed if I don't gain power

Thanks again guys, I wouldn't have even touched my intake floor if it weren't for this thread (I did about 50% or 2/3rds as aggressive a job to the intake floor, as I did to the exhaust roof)

 

[Ronie]

raised the exhaust ceiling by about 20% of the stock exhaust-port-height

I did about 50% or 2/3rds as aggressive a job to the intake floor, as I did to the exhaust roof)

I'm curious what you mean, not really understanding what your saying.

Also did you widen the exhaust and intake?

 

[Cerberus]

I'm curious what you mean, not really understanding what your saying.

Sorry for being unclear I meant literal measurements of port-height, not measurements via timing-degrees!!

I meant that I used millimeters, measuring the inside-faces of the ports and, since I was starting from the Tinman 590 job as a starting point, I began by a close-emulation of his work on the exhaust (as it's the only port he changes timing on) He raised his port ~25% of the OEM port-height, I raised mine 20%....I'll be able to get OEM timing degrees on 'part 2' (this was always a part 1-of-2 thing, but was made MUCH more so upon hearing so little is thought of both tinman & ironhorse), anyway tinman didn't change intake timing which I thought weird, a 'mismatch' if you're doing the exhaust, so was glad to hear from a comment here to do intake...but didn't know enough so 'went gentle', doing "50% as-aggressive" a job as I did to the exhaust, meaning that I measured my intake's OEM port-height, and lowered its floor by 10% of that! I chose that (50% as-aggressive, proportinally, as the exhaust) because my limited knowledge of intakes is "you double, because 'duration'", and just figured less is better on my 'ignorant pass #1'!!

Transfers: He'd left his lower transfers' edges untouched, but opened up their inner-volume....only on the cylinder though, not the casing....this was weird to me but I found someone who said they did the casing portion as well so my intent was just to copy ironman's work on the lowers and just 'take it down into the casing' but, once I was actually ready to do it, and seeing how much space there was at the casing portion of the lowers, I realized I'd better learn more (my instinct was "because the cylinder's lower-transfer porting is 'the tunnel', I should realllly bore these case-side transfers out hard!" which I knew was not a good thought on 1st-pass so I just left them alone!)

Base gasket/compression... Removal went easily with hand chisels (actually I hand-filed the finish on my ports..), cannot say my starter rope has any more resistance though...I guess the exhaust raise won-out over the gasket-delete! Reading through the porting megathreads (finished Compression and Exhausts so far), it seems compression is gained in 3 ways, 1 is super simple (gasket delete) and the other 2 are serious:
1 - machining the base of the cylinder for even tighter squish, or
2 - using (making?) a "popup" piston
Is there another way for making compression I'm missing? I know it's not an end-all thing but would bet dollars to donuts that my saw would benefit, that its compression is lower than better ported 590's...is lower than where it should be. But with the base gasket out I am unsure what to do, actually was gonna get the bottom machined but I foolishly did not realize, til it was in my hands, that it has protrusions that inhibit just "flat machine-lathing" of the cylinder (and that's the only "friendly place" I know that'd help me, they can't work-around the protrusions it's flat-surface only), maybe these pop-ups aren't as big a deal as I'm thinking but feel like I'm missing something, like compression is build *somewhere* else, commonly, that I'm missing here!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Thanks again guys, will have hopefully have something to show-off after I finish the series and do round 2!! Today, after 18hrs of Motoseal curing, saw had H&L enrichened about 1/16th, I re-fueled it the night prior (hate dry fuel filters , it turned-over perfectly, ran perfectly, everything was a-OK, am still keeping it fat and have not pushed it yet as my chain-oiler works fine but for some reason my jam-free bar keeps being stubborn w/ the oil.... will get to fix and test more tomorrow! Cannot say the gains are anything special but are apparent enough in idle speed and cut speed right off the bat, but sadly wasn't really able to test as my bar wasn't oiling for some unknown reason (will get to play more tomorrow!)

Also did you widen the exhaust and intake?

Insofar as my subtle changes to the floor and ceiling shaping, yes....but not much. Seeing the pictures of others' work in those mega-threads here, especially the Exhaust Porting one, made me realize that I focused entirely too-much on the area closest to the inner-edge of the port, and didn't take-advantage of all that extra space making it 'flare out' appropriately (round 2 will have this, I actually just ordered better bits, I did round 1 using mostly sanding gear ) The muffler, while its entry port does match OEM flange dimensions, the angle of the flare inside the flange means that it definitely "hits a lip" entering the muffler, so while the outermost perimeter of the muffler's entry port doesn't necessarily need to be touched, you do need to contour/flare it if you want it to match the flare inside the edge of the exhaust-port, so I ground the hell out of mine to achieve that, was quite a bit more difficulty than all the port grinding
~~~~~~~~
BTW Ronie your work is sick am gonna have to check your other youtubes, wanted to mention something I read you may find interesting, you mention how surpassing the 13k or 13.5k on the 620 coil kinda shows it's not a limited coil...I've read an anecdote that an echo rep mentioned the limiter for it kicks in around 13 or 13.5, IE that the limiters' threshold is not remotely as hard or precise a limit as we may've initially thought (or as I'd initially thought, anyways!!)
~~~~~~~

 

[Cerberus]

Have been wondering... Is most-of the gains from porting achievable via dremels and other basic gear? I guess I'm looking at my "compression stalemate" here fearing going down this porting-path til I get a good enough handle to realize that a good port-job requires true metal-fab machining, is this generally the case? As mentioned I was planning to get a subtle milling off the bottom of my cylinder but it's got protrusions so can't be done on a flat lathing setup, this kind of gear isn't something I would even know where to begin asking for access to tradesmen for (and can only imagine what they'd wanna charge me) This'd mean if you're not privvy to a machining shop, your portwork will always be 2nd rate, am not saying I'd be uninterested if that were the reality but just want to know upfront if it's so!

 

[Ronie]

You could buy a pop up piston for it if you're looking for more compression.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1849476079...fvIHgiKTHLRkxeMHiMUNq_pQKAxQATtQaAlOPEALw_wcB

 

[Ronie]

Raising the exhaust 20% of the total height seems like a lot, how much did you raise it?

 

[Ronie]

On the 600 and 620 I did I went the opposite direction and lowered the exhaust because I wanted it to have good torque to run a 24" bar. I think they are both at 109.

 

[Nutball]

You could buy a pop up piston for it if you're looking for more compression.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1849476079...fvIHgiKTHLRkxeMHiMUNq_pQKAxQATtQaAlOPEALw_wcB

I hope that's not a Golf piston or it will be a brick

 

[Ronie]

I hope that's not a Golf piston or it will be a brick

I don't know who they have making them, never used one of their 590 pistons. I did notice the where they machined the pop up that it's flat and not angled like the 590 squish band.

 

[Cerberus]

Any thoughts on muffler work?

Can I ask what numbers you used on that 590 build?? (presumably they'd be w/o base gasket numbers as I know you removed yours!)

I only did a small exhaust ceiling raise and slight widening, and did about half-as-aggressive a job to the intake floor, on my 590....haven't had a chance to 'turn it up' to test it yet but first testing today shows it isn't remotely approaching yours lol, not that I was expecting much on my 1st porting but think I was hoping for more...maybe the proper tuning will show more (hell I never even got to properly lean-into a cut because my bar oil path became impeded for reasons as-yet-undiscovered but could tell initial RPM in cut via the tach and it was hardly 500-700rpm up) Would highly appreciate knowing your #'s, I won't ask to be hand-fed anyone else's it's my fault for being on page 31 w/o having taken notes :/

Re your question / the muffler work.... I like where you're coming from!!! I see your 355t (right?) in the background of the vid you posted, its my big climbsaw and I remember thinking "this open-can muffler is the best!" when I first got it (2018 model), then when I got my 590 recently (2019 model) and saw its muffler, while I knew it was restrictive for obvious reasons, I knew it was designed with intent....
I used to think mufflers had no reason, so I was happy to mod my 590's muffler (initially) the way most do- a large hole on the top, opposite the OEM hole, basically a direct output for the exhaust-port...this would effectively negate the front portion of the muffler...negate much of what Echo designed and much of the 2 reasons I understand that a muffler IS desirable for performance:
#1- keeps more resistance/initial-compression to the gas escaping, and
#2- keeps better "charge" air / scavenged exhaust for the cylinder to take back in, instead of clean-air
SO...your initial design / thoughts IE boring-out holes in the center baffle, that's on-track in my eyes! I did the same (although I went for the sides...why did you aim for the floor? I went for the sides so the "initial back-pressure" from the exhaust pulse would have a 'cleaner wall' to hit and bounce-back off), and then I added a new exit-hole on the front-upper of the muffler (IE, now the exhaust gas isn't forced to escape through the straw, it can also escape that front-half by a new, big hole in the upper-front wall as well as the straw, and as mentioned the baffle's total pass-through is 2X higher or more compared to OEM)
Oh and as with most cases, the muff's intake-port needs to be ground as well, its outer-perimeter is actually on-point (for an un-touched exhaust outlet flange, not a ported one!) but once you consider that the muff's rear-wall is like 3mm+ thick, and that its angle is NOT in-line with the lines of the exhaust-port angles, so you really have to "shave the bump off" at least on the lower lip if you want the exhaust gas entering the muffler unrestricted! Add a millimeter if using the stock heat shield (I swapped in a larger, soft-lead shield....seemed like the right move, having had both on the bench )

 

[Cerberus]

Stock rating is 4hp. Comparing to other stock saws I think I get about 6.0hp from a 590 with porting. Most saws will run very well at 9500rpm in the cut.

As you know -- having literally helped me through it, thanks again!!-- it was just 2 days ago I tried my hand at porting a saw I actually was going to run (not just porting dead cylinders!), anyway I now see it as mostly a waste as I didn't setup the wheel and, even if I had, I didn't have the right #'s (Was copying 'tinman', which was "raise exhaust, slightly open transfers...remove gasket. Done.")

Anyway my saw is faster (oiler was being weird so I could really just see free-rev and initial speed, I have a tach mounted to my saw like at all times, the whole 2.4hrs it's run ;P ), but it's not even by 1k RPM but I was barely hitting 9k in the cut....I feel like I have it "kinda rich" but that's still 1/2 or maybe 5/8 turns ccw H setting...I know people call these "impossible to lean" but feels weird going leaner than it is, I question if it's as lean as I think it is but it does speed-up when I check max in-cut RPM if I lean it a smidge...my tach could just suck though :/

 

[Red97]

Have been wondering... Is most-of the gains from porting achievable via dremels and other basic gear? I guess I'm looking at my "compression stalemate" here fearing going down this porting-path til I get a good enough handle to realize that a good port-job requires true metal-fab machining, is this generally the case? As mentioned I was planning to get a subtle milling off the bottom of my cylinder but it's got protrusions so can't be done on a flat lathing setup, this kind of gear isn't something I would even know where to begin asking for access to tradesmen for (and can only imagine what they'd wanna charge me) This'd mean if you're not privvy to a machining shop, your portwork will always be 2nd rate, am not saying I'd be uninterested if that were the reality but just want to know upfront if it's so!

A way to work the upper transfers would be before a lathe, if someone was starting from scratch.

Still curious as to how many MM you raised/lowered the ports?

 

[Red97]

As you know -- having literally helped me through it, thanks again!!-- it was just 2 days ago I tried my hand at porting a saw I actually was going to run (not just porting dead cylinders!), anyway I now see it as mostly a waste as I didn't setup the wheel and, even if I had, I didn't have the right #'s (Was copying 'tinman', which was "raise exhaust, slightly open transfers...remove gasket. Done.")

Anyway my saw is faster (oiler was being weird so I could really just see free-rev and initial speed, I have a tach mounted to my saw like at all times, the whole 2.4hrs it's run ;P ), but it's not even by 1k RPM but I was barely hitting 9k in the cut....I feel like I have it "kinda rich" but that's still 1/2 or maybe 5/8 turns ccw H setting...I know people call these "impossible to lean" but feels weird going leaner than it is, I question if it's as lean as I think it is but it does speed-up when I check max in-cut RPM if I lean it a smidge...my tach could just suck though :/

Depending on your porting it should like 12.8k out of the cut no load.

Stock carb has to have the L needle way in to get higher rpm even with the H closed off. With the L way in it makes them a pain to start and return to idle. Best is to swap the carb nozzle and re tune.

Limiter in the 590 coil is 13.2-5k 620 coil is unlimited. I have seen over 15k on that coil.

 

[lauren]

joe, I'm set at 15100-15200 on mine, is that high enough?

 

[Red97]

joe, I'm set at 15100-15200 on mine, is that high enough?

Should do the trick.