Another chainsaw dyno...

[mgr1]

This Thread is still alive if you post 5 times a Day

The transfer mod with epoxy is Something special on the Deets hybrid.

 

[00wyk]

I was wondering where you could mount a MSD box on a saw or a FiTech on a 500i lol

All you need is a file, a piece of string or a flywheel puller, and a pair of vice grips or a small vice. A few degrees can make a big difference.
This is a 4300 with about 6* or so of advance on top of whatever the coil is giving(and is finger ported as well). Stock compression. Wood is seasoned oak.

 

[dall]

All you need is a file, a piece of string or a flywheel puller, and a pair of vice grips or a small vice. A few degrees can make a big difference.
This is a 4300 with about 6* or so of advance on top of whatever the coil is giving(and is finger ported as well). Stock compression. Wood is seasoned oak.

the 500 doesnt have a coil it has a crank sensor

 

[00wyk]

the 500 doesnt have a coil it has a crank sensor

That's gonna make it difficult, then.

 

[Backtroller]

I’ve advanced plenty of saws.

I was getting at being able to change the curve, advance or retard the timing at will. On a FI saw Being able to influence the fuel maps via laptop..... Some day

 

[Spladle160]

Yep, programmable advance doesn't seem too far away or may even be happening now. Just need one of the programming and electrical engineering literate types to make us a "power commander" type tuning interface.

 

[Spladle160]

Back to the echo 1200 vs the higher HP ported 90cc saws. The issue is similar to the power to the ground issue. There is no doubt a 1200hp motor is always capable of quicker A to B's than a 900hp motor but you have to have it set up right. Horsepower is after all, the ability to do work. The ability is there, it just has to be harnessed.

 

[RI Chevy]

All in the chain!

 

[Duane(Pa)]

All in the rakers!

Fixed

 

[RI Chevy]

Are the rakers part of da chain? [emoji848]

 

[Canadian farm boy]

I have another relevant Hybrid question for both CFB and DEETS (since our dyno is down and we need to keep this thread alive).

Are you guys running Stihl style double ring pistons, or Husky style single ring pistons that allow you to further open the Exhaust?

I have a meteor 046 piston in my saw and iirc it’s running both rings.

 

[NightRogue]

Back to the echo 1200 vs the higher HP ported 90cc saws. The issue is similar to the power to the ground issue. There is no doubt a 1200hp motor is always capable of quicker A to B's than a 900hp motor but you have to have it set up right. Horsepower is after all, the ability to do work. The ability is there, it just has to be harnessed.

Precisely, power to the ground like said above. In this case hardwood with long bars are equivalent to a big heavy truck hauling load uphill.

The rakers comment are another interesting point, i believe the low rakers actually slow the saw down and let the cutter bite longer and moving more chips. It does cut bigger chunks but i think the time factor helps alot more

Sent from my INE-LX2r using Tapatalk

 

[Sawrain]

"power to the ground!'

If your saw does not eat wood at higher RPMs, then change your chain set up.

Agree completely but we're limited with sprocket/rim gearing option, you cant make 6 pin 404. That size wont fit the crank, 1200 pulls 404 like a diesel on power stroke. Gotta love the high torque low rpm in heavy duty applications.

Fantastic point.

Back to the echo 1200 vs the higher HP ported 90cc saws. The issue is similar to the power to the ground issue. There is no doubt a 1200hp motor is always capable of quicker A to B's than a 900hp motor but you have to have it set up right. Horsepower is after all, the ability to do work. The ability is there, it just has to be harnessed.

These posts together have really nailed a situation.

And let's assume we are talking a race/proper big cut's not limbing etc, the perfect cut, where the saw didn't bog or overrev.

Horsepower always wins, ALWAYS, of course we would like to maintain a wide powerband, but high power does not have to mean peaky.

If an unknown saw has 6HP and moves your chain at an optimal speed for the conditions, it's job done, we know roughly how it will perform.

If you tell me an unknown saw has 6ftlbs but don't reference an rpm (to make it power) it really doesn't mean much, as if it is a 50s vintage saw it probably means ~4hp if it is a 395xp it probably means 10hp.

With our modern saws we are lucky that most cutting situations can be dealt with by chain/sprocket combinations available to us, it is really only when we fall outside of these available chain speed options that outlier saws may be the best option, it isn't because torque is king, it is just the simple roadblock of chain action and sprocket options.

Another way to put phrase it might be, what is the end result we are trying to achieve? well that is to move the chain with a certain speed and (maximum) force, where the rubber meets the road in a way, and again within the limits of gearing these numbers are under our control, if the horsepower is there, and the gearing option is there, you win.

Let's run a hypothetical, as these sprocket doesn't exist, where we keep chain speeds fairly constant per saw.

Chainsaw........rpm.........HP.......TQ........Pitch.........Teeth.....PCD........Chain force........chain speed...............available.
cs1200.............6000........7.0.......6.0........404...........7............1.83".......78lb..................2828ft/min....................Yes
ms660.............9000........7.2.......4.2........404...........5............1.37"........74lb..................3030...............................No
CFB440...........10750.......10.7.....5.5.........404...........4...........1.13"........116lb.................2898...............................No

Horsepower is the constant, and it wins if you can gear it appropriately for the task at hand.

Precisely, power to the ground like said above. In this case hardwood with long bars are equivalent to a big heavy truck hauling load uphill.

Unfortunately this analogy is one I cannot agree with.

Trucks have as many as 18 gear ratios, and old girls maybe a 2 speed differential for the reason of allowing the engine to operate at peak power (or wherever) across a wide of a range of road speeds as possible, why so many gears? because big diesels have a relatively narrow operating ranges and you need all those gears to stay on the pipe as it were.

If you are hauling up hill in a hurry you are operating at peak power, and 500HP is 500HP, no matter if it is from a LS Chev or 15L Cummins, and unlike us the heavy haulage/automotive industry have ability to always gear machines appropriately, and this ability (not with standing reliability/longevity/efficiency) means that power to the ground isn't such an issue.

Once it is geared the torque at final drive, and ultimately the 'tractive effort' is the same.

The massive torque large (turbocharged only!!!) diesels have isn't why they perform well, it is a 100% mechanical/mathematical necessity due to the fact they cannot get power from high rpm operation.

Horsepower and gear boxes FTW.

Edit, I wouldn’t disagree with the Statement that the idea is to build torque, as that is what does the work, it’s just that torque alone doesn’t indicate how fast the work will get done.

 

[Agent Smith]

Happy 4th everybody. Hope everyone got to have a few cold beers and blow something up!

 

[NightRogue]

Fantastic point.



These posts together have really nailed a situation.

And let's assume we are talking a race/proper big cut's not limbing etc, the perfect cut, where the saw didn't bog or overrev.

Horsepower always wins, ALWAYS, of course we would like to maintain a wide powerband, but high power does not have to mean peaky.

If an unknown saw has 6HP and moves your chain at an optimal speed for the conditions, it's job done, we know roughly how it will perform.

If you tell me an unknown saw has 6ftlbs but don't reference an rpm (to make it power) it really doesn't mean much, as if it is a 50s vintage saw it probably means ~4hp if it is a 395xp it probably means 10hp.

With our modern saws we are lucky that most cutting situations can be dealt with by chain/sprocket combinations available to us, it is really only when we fall outside of these available chain speed options that outlier saws may be the best option, it isn't because torque is king, it is just the simple roadblock of chain action and sprocket options.

Another way to put phrase it might be, what is the end result we are trying to achieve? well that is to move the chain with a certain speed and (maximum) force, where the rubber meets the road in a way, and again within the limits of gearing these numbers are under our control, if the horsepower is there, and the gearing option is there, you win.

Let's run a hypothetical, as these sprocket doesn't exist, where we keep chain speeds fairly constant per saw.

Chainsaw........rpm.........HP.......TQ........Pitch.........Teeth.....PCD........Chain force........chain speed...............available.
cs1200.............6000........7.0.......6.0........404...........7............1.83".......78lb..................2828ft/min....................Yes
ms660.............9000........7.2.......4.2........404...........5............1.37"........74lb..................3030...............................No
CFB440...........10750.......10.7.....5.5.........404...........4...........1.13"........116lb.................2898...............................No

Horsepower is the constant, and it wins if you can gear it appropriately for the task at hand.




Unfortunately this analogy is one I cannot agree with.

Trucks have as many as 18 gear ratios, and old girls maybe a 2 speed differential for the reason of allowing the engine to operate at peak power (or wherever) across a wide of a range of road speeds as possible, why so many gears? because big diesels have a relatively narrow operating ranges and you need all those gears to stay on the pipe as it were.

If you are hauling up hill in a hurry you are operating at peak power, and 500HP is 500HP, no matter if it is from a LS Chev or 15L Cummins, and unlike us the heavy haulage/automotive industry have ability to always gear machines appropriately, and this ability (not with standing reliability/longevity/efficiency) means that power to the ground isn't such an issue.

The massive torque large (turbocharged only!!!) diesels have isn't why they perform well, it is a 100% mechanical/mathematical necessity due to the fact they cannot get power from high rpm operation.

Horsepower and gear boxes FTW.

Very detailed explanation, you pretty much solved the problem/question. Fantastic breakdown and comparison

Yeah that analogy i forgot to mention the truck has only 1 gear lol

Sent from my INE-LX2r using Tapatalk

 

[Fifelaker]

Horsepower is for play, torque is for work. The diesels I have been around were 237 hp macks, 238 hp detroits, 350 and 400 big cam Cummins and a few cats. That said they were 425 hp and under, but north of 1,300 ft lbs of torque. The gears kept it in the torque curve not the horsepower curve. A 427,425hp big block chevy wouldn't pull half as hard as either the mack or the screaming jimmy.

 

[rogue60]

I was covered with chips working on that wood lol, anyway here's another picture of me with my precious 1200 42" and my ground guy with 084 30" because its a cry baby in hardwood and wont pull low raker chain [emoji23]
Here's the link 1200 running on moderately hardwood, rosewood tree

Yes you're right, 084 are rated at 5.8ftlbs. 1200 at 6.7ftlbs, the big difference in cutting power comes due to the lower rpm im guessing. Ported 395xp is my favourite in medium hard to soft wood, if thats what i deal with everyday I'll get rid of every other big saws in my stable no question. They're a joy to run, so smooth and fast. My 395 is ported in torquey way, 102,122,78. On a silky oak which is pretty soft for our standards lol, 395 ported handed 084 ass everyway and everytime. 1200 is useless in this environment because they lack the chain speed the other 2 has.

1200 has the best oiling capacity I've seen, they over oil 42" in lowest setting. Crank driven oiler which dumps alot oil in lowest setting, auto oiler can probably feed 60" with max setting easily. Manual oiler is overkill in any application, it will literally gush out oil through the clutch cover gap when pressed running 42". I had to cut a slot on my 42 bar oil hole to let it stay in the bar, the only reason im using the manual oiler is with use it or lose it mentality. To prevent rust and crud jamming up, otherwise they'll oil double power head mill setup single handedly

Yes 3/8 gets stretched out and thrashed too soon, they suit 395 and 084 alot but unfortunately the wood i deal with dont allow it. 404 are nice, they hold the edge and dont dull that quick, they hit a knot or grit and just dull 1 cutter and move on like nothing happened lol. On the other hand 3/8ths, if you hit something in our wood it'll be a long day [emoji28]

Sent from my INE-LX2r using Tapatalk

3/8 is for play saw's and pine trees lol

 

[Deets066]

I have a meteor 046 piston in my saw and iirc it’s running both rings.

Oem piston in mine too, both rings

 

[RI Chevy]

Now we need a hybrid with a Hooskie slug for testing. Lol

 

[dustinwilt68]

Now we need a hybrid with a Hooskie slug for testing. Lol

I believe the mofo hybrid had a husky piston that ranchdad sent in.