Which filter is best? MS460

[malk315]

Much longer use without removing to clean is why I got one to begin with

Extra benefit is the additional air it flows, plus it somehow seems to reduce turbulence at the inlet. They definitely do make more power

Cool -- confirms the dyno isn't complete BS

Still would have liked to have taken a few more samples. Next time we'll spend less time cutting cookies and more time on the dyno. Lee showed up with all of these cool saws and some guys from various neck of the woods shipped in some ridiculously strong stihl 90cc class saws... Dan brought worthy logs... I also contributed some food and drink... enter GTG playtime -- very difficult to leave the logs, saws, food, and beer alone and do just dyno runs!

 

[mdavlee]

The dyno would be better for a rainy day of drinking and sitting under the canopy.

 

[malk315]

The dyno would be better for a rainy day of drinking and sitting under the canopy.

It was supposed to rain hence the canopies... weather people are so damn accurate though.... NOT.

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[Redfin]

Im not questioning the way you tested so please dont take my question the wrong way.

I was thinking about tuning the saw back to 14.3 for every combination. wouldn't that hinder where each combination would be at best tune? Seeing the results with no filter vrs the maxflo made me ponder this.

 

[paragonbuilder]

Im not questioning the way you tested so please dont take my question the wrong way.

I was thinking about tuning the saw back to 14.3 for every combination. wouldn't that hinder where each combination would be at best tune? Seeing the results with no filter vrs the maxflo made me ponder this.

Lol! I'm questioning the results as I said in the first post.
But I didn't retune to 14.3 each time on purpose. I retuned til it was barely 4 stroking. Which is weird cuz at my house it tunes closer to 15...
It just tuned pretty close each time.
Eric then took the high rpm and added to the description.


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[paragonbuilder]

It did seem the max flow made the most power. But we need to get a better curve on this thing and a slower more consistent braking method especially at the lower rpms.
You can see the saws tend to spike at the end but it's not real. Saw is just stopping fast with a load on the arm.


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[paragonbuilder]

And @Redfin,
Please feel free to question me! I'm not sensitive to stuff. I learn when I question or am questioned.
I'm sure that I could have improved the test in many ways...
Learn me some more stuff for next time!!!


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[malk315]

And @Redfin,
Please feel free to question me! I'm not sensitive to stuff. I learn when I question or am questioned.
I'm sure that I could have improved the test in many ways...
Learn me some more stuff for next time!!!


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Same here -- not gonna get butt hurt over questions.
When Dan was re-tuning, the dyno was typically saying between 14,2XX and 14,4XX (ping ponging on the red RPM display) so I figured they were all around 14.3K. Dan was using a tach to tune and I was just watching Dyno RPM readings. The tach and the dyno RPM matchup rather nicely. Tach has a bit more resolution, we're going to take care of that by adding more magnets for the HES to pickup -- Bill pressed on a hub that will allow us to add a bunch more.

Continuous improvement -- all ideas welcome. No question is too dumb.
My questions will be dumb as I don't have a lot of experience wrenching on saws. Hoping to change that when I pickup a smoked saw to go through and turn back into a runner.

 

[jmssaws]

Setting it to the same rpm is the only way you can do it,it removes as many variables as you can.
I don't think max power tune would vary to much between filters,a filter might change the tune but 14,300 is 14,300 regardless of what filter is on it.

 

[MustangMike]

Just a FYI, because the dyno showed my 044#1 at almost 16,000 I made it richer before I restarted it, but it did not like it. I put a tach on in and tuned it to 15,000, and it seems happy there.

Conversely, the dyno only showed my MS440 going a little over 13,000, which seems too low, but when I put a tach on that saw (w/o any adjustment) I got 14,700, so I left it alone.

I don't have any explanation, just sayin.

 

[malk315]

Just a FYI, because the dyno showed my 044#1 at almost 16,000 I made it richer before I restarted it, but it did not like it. I put a tach on in and tuned it to 15,000, and it seems happy there.

Conversely, the dyno only showed my MS440 going a little over 13,000, which seems too low, but when I put a tach on that saw (w/o any adjustment) I got 14,700, so I left it alone.

I don't have any explanation, just sayin.

Mike are you talking about the first numbers you see on the graph or the number you see when Bill is piss reving getting ready to activate the brake and just looking at the live red display showing RPMs?

The numbers on the graph aren't always going to be where the saw tunes at w/ no load -- the dyno starts recording points (for an automatic graph collection) when it sees a load of 0.8 ft-lbs but it "remembers" the last 10 points prior to seeing 0.8 ft-lbs to get most of the no load points up to 0.8 ft-lbs into the graph. It then stops recording points when it goes below 0.5 ft-lbs (this number is lower for hysteresis so when it kicks recording on it doesn't kick right back off from variability in the readings).

I found that when Bill is just piss reving and tuning or Dan in the case of this past Sunday the dyno RPM live on the red LED matches the tach no problem.

It's actually convenient having the dyno RPM right on the display -- you can just tune w/ that and don't need a tach. Dan was using a tach because I had the dyno LEDs pointing towards me he couldn't see the display. Each time he called out 14.2 to 14.3 or so of tune when he was tuning w/o the brake active and dyno not recording I would see between 14.2 and 14.4 on the dyno RPM -- it was agreeing quite well.

They dyno right now has RPM accurate to 250 RPM for 7 pin sprockets and 218 RPM for 8 pin sprockets.
We measure RPM on the big sprocket shaft which gets a 5:1 reduction for 7 pin rim (35 pins / 7 pin == 5) and a 4.375 reduction for 8 pin rim (35 pins / 8 pin == 4.375)

I was happy to see that when we switched from all of the 8 pin saws to Bills 394 and I had forgotten to update the dyno's setting from 8 pin back to 7 pin the RPMs were way off (taching at like 13,000 but dyno only showing 11-12000 it was obvious just by sound). I changed from 7 pin to 8 pin so the calculation in the software would be correct -- and bam the 394 was showing a more correct 13,500 or whatever.

 

[MasterMech]

Setting it to the same rpm is the only way you can do it,it removes as many variables as you can.
I don't think max power tune would vary to much between filters,a filter might change the tune but 14,300 is 14,300 regardless of what filter is on it.

So testing a muffler mod for example and tuning to the same rpm as a stock muffler would be a fair test?

I'd think you'd want the max power result from each configuration. And re-tuning for max power rather than a target rpm limitation is how you get there. If anything, you want to keep the air/fuel ratio as constant as possible. Unfortunately, that's not as practical to measure on a saw as it is on say an engine dyno for cars or a chassis dyno.

As they tweak the dyno design and get it to be less touchy on the brake, you should easily be able to tweak the tune for max power at a given RPM and then do a few pulls for a peak number.

 

[MasterMech]

Once there is a MaxFlow setup for an M-tronic saw, I'd be interested to see this comparison repeated. both for the air filter comparisons and to see the M-tronic system actually tuning on the dyno.

 

[MasterMech]

Actually, if we wanted to do some testing sans covers, is there any reason a max flow wouldn't fit a 661? Perhaps even my MMWS 441CM?

 

[jmssaws]

I think trying to tune a saw for maximum power for each airfilter would be a very long process.

 

[jmssaws]

If one airfilter makes more power at 14300 than all the others I'm putting my money on it at any rpm.

 

[Moparmyway]

Once there is a MaxFlow setup for an M-tronic saw, I'd be interested to see this comparison repeated. both for the air filter comparisons and to see the M-tronic system actually tuning on the dyno.

Actually, if we wanted to do some testing sans covers, is there any reason a max flow wouldn't fit a 661? Perhaps even my MMWS 441CM?

We've been running MaxFlow air filters on 661's for a while now

 

[paragonbuilder]

Ok, just to clear this up, I tuned each time to the edge of four stroking by ear, and then check with the tach. Interestingly I ended up pretty much at the same rpm each time even though I had to turn the high.

 

[malk315]

Ok, just to clear this up, I tuned each time to the edge of four stroking by ear, and then check with the tach. Interestingly I ended up pretty much at the same rpm each time even though I had to turn the high.

Oh so THATs what was going on. I was just watchin the red numbers. Your ear is thus calibrated at around 14,300

 

[malk315]

Kevin you up at 3:00am. I just can't sleep strickened with wake up at 3:00 or 3:30 a lot... you start early or working graveyard shift?