MS400.1 c-m

[lehman live edge slab]

That's a delicate touch... by that i mean, I'm listening to the tone of the saw while watching to see if the saw flexes during the cut.
If I allow the 462s to cut, using equally smooth pressure so the tone of the saw is consistent... they'll rip through the wood. I'd love to see a skip tooth on a 20" bar on that saw. A lot of guys around these parts run a 20-24" bar. Most of our big trees are within the towns or on Big private lots so the need for big bars isn't big in my area. The local loggers say that they can do everything with a 20" bar that a guy can do with a 28" bar... but they can do it faster.
I guess the smooth operators that allow the saw to do it's thing like the 462s... I'm clumsy, heavy handed and like to push the saw through the cut so the between my lack of skill.and the 472s lack of torque its a hard no go for me.

Then honestly you won’t be happy with anything less than 80cc because no matter what anyone say’s there’s no such thing as a saw of any brand you can’t slow down. Talking manufacturers saws not a 350 v-8 hooked to a chain. You either need to lighten up on pulling on the saw which isn’t good for the mounts anyway or leave your rakers a bit higher so it can’t bite so hard. Or run a ported 881 on everything

 

[wiwalker06]

What are they copying exactly? The new intake style on stihls with the air injection is because the pattern went away. Yes the autotune may have been the start of mtronic but that’s because it’s a clean technology that Sweden made husky share for the good of the world by cutting pollution. Husky never did a lot of breakthrough development themselves over the years. Air injectection “turbo” was a jonsreds design that husky bought them to get. The stratto port design was also due to buying redmax from komatsu. Stihl i believe had the first av using rubber mounts in the 60’s which husky and the rest used for years before springs which yes now stihl has switched too. Bearings with the crank seal built in was used on the stihl 045, husky used to pull vacuum for impulse through the carb stack but now has impulse lines that Stihl put on years ago when they changed from the 040 to 041. Main two differences between an 040 and 041 non av is caged vs loose lower rod bearings and an impulse line vs pulling through carb stack. They all have gone to a line now far as i know because it’s better you don’t loose pulse on carb at times if a screw loosened up. The plastic block vs boot on the old stihls was more than enough of a pain bolts vibrating loose and sucking air at block. 041/075 ect. After they switched all to boots that went away, started boots on the 042/048 and others back in the 70’s. Certain 2 series huskies had the block and the jonsred had a boot guess what’s better? They all have boots of some form now that bolts or clamps to the cylinder. Fact is they copy each other and work with each other to make them both better. Sometimes they even copy each others not so good plans. I think husky will have an injection saw down the road using Stihl’s system as a basis.

The 462 and 400C/362 are copies of a Husky XP in almost every design detail. The new 400.1 even uses the Husky style muffler, but the made it better by making it two pieces.
Husky did get autotune/Mtronic, strato porting ETC from the acquisition of Redmax and it was the same story for Jonsered and air injection. That matters not as they bought them and bring it to market on a mass scale which Redmax and Jonsered couldn't do.
I won't comment on the stuff from way back because I dont know anything about antique saws.

 

[Stump Shot]

The only thing Husqvarna and Stihl don't copy from each other is what is patented.
But that they exchange technology with each other is quite obvious. It is also logical nowadays, when it is more required to be able to deliver products to different continents, that technology cooperation is a win-win for both of them.

As far as I am to understand it, the EU mandates them to share and make the best cleanest saws possible. Whether one gains more than the other in the bargain is not of concern.

 

[lehman live edge slab]

The 462 and 400C/362 are copies of a Husky XP in almost every design detail.
Husky did get autotune/Mtronic, strato porting ETC from the acquisition of Redmax and it was the same story for Jonsered and air injection. That matters not as they bought them and bring it to market on a mass scale which Redmax and Jonsered couldn't do.
I won't comment on the stuff from way back because aindont know anything about antique saws.

Was just bringing up that they all copy and jonsreds would more than likely been fine without husky but husky being bigger and seeing something they wanted they bought their way to a better saw and it happens when your a much bigger company and you see a good idea you usually buy it. But as far as Stihl being the copy cat half of what husky had came from elsewhere. One think I’m hoping Stihl doesn’t copy is huskies overall crankshaft durability on the 5 series saws with this new 400.1.

 

[wiwalker06]

Then honestly you won’t be happy with anything less than 80cc because no matter what anyone say’s there’s no such thing as a saw of any brand you can’t slow down. Talking manufacturers saws not a 350 v-8 hooked to a chain. You either need to lighten up on pulling on the saw which isn’t good for the mounts anyway or leave your rakers a bit higher so it can’t bite so hard. Or run a ported 881 on everything

I see alot of comments from guys like the one this reply is to. Lots of times it's poor chain with rakers too low that cause the bogging. Or the 462 is gutless pig, I can't say.
I can say a ported 066 with a 16" bar is very tough to bog cutting firewood.

 

[wiwalker06]

As far as I am to understand it, the EU mandates them to share and make the best cleanest saws possible. Whether one gains more than the other in the bargain is not of concern.

Its hard to find info on the case. IIRC it was an EU court case on anti trust matters.

 

[wiwalker06]

Was just bringing up that they all copy and jonsreds would more than likely been fine without husky but husky being bigger and seeing something they wanted they bought their way to a better saw and it happens when your a much bigger company and you see a good idea you usually buy it. But as far as Stihl being the copy cat half of what husky had came from elsewhere. One think I’m hoping Stihl doesn’t copy is huskies overall crankshaft durability on the 5 series saws with this new 400.1.

Its worth noting I am talking about the last ten years. It's been stihl that's done all the copying for that time period. Can't comment on how it was prior to that.
I will say that if you owned say a 372 XP and a ms440 or a 346xp and a MS260 it was pretty easy to see that Husky was one generation ahead of Stihl back then.
I hope you are right on the 400.1. Husky has had its share of bearing problems on the 60cc and 50cc saws. From what ai gather running more oil is the fix. Which is probably why I never had any issues with my 562 and I don't anticipate any with my new 550.
BTW it's a good thing Stihl has copied Husky. I love the 400C. Out of the box It's the best Stihl saw I've ever ran. The 361 was a decent saw but the air filter was a sieve and the saw absolutely needed the muffler modded or it ran like crap. Of course it's cylinder was a copy of the Husky XP cylinder more or less.

 

[Rich Fife]

Then honestly you won’t be happy with anything less than 80cc because no matter what anyone say’s there’s no such thing as a saw of any brand you can’t slow down.

Im not talking about 80+cc saws.... I'm simply stating Some saws with the same CC (+/- 1cc) as the 462s are just inherently better. By that, I mean, more torque... you can lean on the saw harder and cut more. Idk how else to put it. The 462 just lacks torque... the same.for a stock 400. There is no debate or convincing me otherwise. Now, With that said, the 462s carry the rpms probably better than most saw.... IF... you let the saw cut...
If I had to choose between a 71-72cc HUSKY or a 70-72cc STIHL... I'm taking the HUSKY 371 or an early 372, 95% of the time. The other 5% would be a built Stihl 400 with a 20" bar... (Apples to apples, all saws being ported).

You either need to lighten up on pulling on the saw which isn’t good for the mounts anyway

come-on man, obviously people are going to lean on their saws, the amount that one can lean on a saw is solely dependent on the power of that saw. If you have a saw that you can lean hard on and it continues to cut, then I'd agree with your statement about beating the mounts up. I see more mount damage from guys yanking on their saws after they pinch their bars... I hardly see mount issues from.guys leaning on these newer stihls because they fall flat on their faces.

or leave your rakers a bit higher so it can’t bite so hard. Or run a ported 881 on everything

My chains aren't choppy and they cut well for what I need them to do. Lol. I change my angles and I do the double round file sharpening... I can't stand when the Rakers are too low.
I'd love to see videos of someone using a pull machine and time the cuts... something that'll show a baseline cut of equal but light pressure... then atart adding pull pressure... keep going in specific increments to see exactly where or what pressure makes a saw fall flat... (that honestly sounds like a lot of work and brains to set some *s-word like that up)... ahahaha. Then you'd have relatively accurate numbers to be able to compare saws and their actual power/gains.

 

[wiwalker06]

Im not talking about 80+cc saws.... I'm simply stating Some saws with the same CC (+/- 1cc) as the 462s are just inherently better. By that, I mean, more torque... you can lean on the saw harder and cut more. Idk how else to put it. The 462 just lacks torque... the same.for a stock 400. There is no debate or convincing me otherwise. Now, With that said, the 462s carry the rpms probably better than most saw.... IF... you let the saw cut...
If I had to choose between a 71-72cc HUSKY or a 70-72cc STIHL... I'm taking the HUSKY 371 or an early 372, 95% of the time. The other 5% would be a built Stihl 400 with a 20" bar... (Apples to apples, all saws being ported).

come-on man, obviously people are going to lean on their saws, the amount that one can lean on a saw is solely dependent on the power of that saw. If you have a saw that you can lean hard on and it continues to cut, then I'd agree with your statement about beating the mounts up. I see more mount damage from guys yanking on their saws after they pinch their bars... I hardly see mount issues from.guys leaning on these newer stihls because they fall flat on their faces.

My chains aren't choppy and they cut well for what I need them to do. Lol. I change my angles and I do the double round file sharpening... I can't stand when the Rakers are too low.
I'd love to see videos of someone using a pull machine and time the cuts... something that'll show a baseline cut of equal but light pressure... then atart adding pull pressure... keep going in specific increments to see exactly where or what pressure makes a saw fall flat... (that honestly sounds like a lot of work and brains to set some *s-word like that up)... ahahaha. Then you'd have relatively accurate numbers to be able to compare saws and their actual power/gains.

IMO for a 60cc saw the 400C has lots of torque.

 

[Rich Fife]

IMO for a 60cc saw the 400C has lots of torque.

Ported, the 400 is a Great Saw!

 

[lehman live edge slab]

Im not talking about 80+cc saws.... I'm simply stating Some saws with the same CC (+/- 1cc) as the 462s are just inherently better. By that, I mean, more torque... you can lean on the saw harder and cut more. Idk how else to put it. The 462 just lacks torque... the same.for a stock 400. There is no debate or convincing me otherwise. Now, With that said, the 462s carry the rpms probably better than most saw.... IF... you let the saw cut...
If I had to choose between a 71-72cc HUSKY or a 70-72cc STIHL... I'm taking the HUSKY 371 or an early 372, 95% of the time. The other 5% would be a built Stihl 400 with a 20" bar... (Apples to apples, all saws being ported).

Guess you want an 038 mag in 70cc

come-on man, obviously people are going to lean on their saws, the amount that one can lean on a saw is solely dependent on the power of that saw. If you have a saw that you can lean hard on and it continues to cut, then I'd agree with your statement about beating the mounts up. I see more mount damage from guys yanking on their saws after they pinch their bars... I hardly see mount issues from.guys leaning on these newer stihls because they fall flat on their faces.

Seen plenty of stretched and wrecked springs on all makes of newer saws I just think you expect too much for a 70cc saw is all.

My chains aren't choppy and they cut well for what I need them to do. Lol. I change my angles and I do the double round file sharpening... I can't stand when the Rakers are too low.
I'd love to see videos of someone using a pull machine and time the cuts... something that'll show a baseline cut of equal but light pressure... then atart adding pull pressure... keep going in specific increments to see exactly where or what pressure makes a saw fall flat... (that honestly sounds like a lot of work and brains to set some *s-word like that up)... ahahaha. Then you'd have relatively accurate numbers to be able to compare saws and their actual power/gains.

Didn’t say was choppy maybe a little more aggressive than you think they are, most people like the way the new saws are carrying more rpm in the cut and usually this turns out to be the faster method. Little lighter hand with more rpm same reason an 044 will beat an 038 mag even though the 038 has more torque. Don’t know what rim your running on the 462 but if it’s an 8 like some people try on them personally I think it’s too much. I also see zero point on skip chain for a 25-28” bar other than faster to sharpen. Even if you gain chain speed with the skip it’s not enough in my opinion to overcome having 1/2 the cutters.

 

[Mastermind]

That's a delicate touch...

Rich, I've ported 1000s of saws, and a more 462s than you can imagine. When I say that this one pulls as I want it too...I'm not blowing smoke up your ass.

So, I'll tune out. Good luck.

 

[Rich Fife]

Didn’t say was choppy maybe a little more aggressive than you think they are,

idk man. If it works for others saws, smaller/bigger cc saws, it should work for the 462.

most people like the way the new saws are carrying more rpm in the cut and usually this turns out to be the faster method.

I disagree with this. And this is my stance, a saw that 'Free cuts' or cuts with minimal down force to keep the chain speed up isnt removing as much material as it could be... if you're able to dog in and feed the saw without dropping excessive rpms, that saw should beat the saws that you have to baby.

I also see zero point on skip chain for a 25-28” bar other than faster to sharpen. Even if you gain chain speed with the skip it’s not enough in my opinion to overcome having 1/2 the cutters.

On saws that lack grunt... a skip tooth shouldn't rob as much power when compared to a full chisel. It should also allow for faster chain speeds which in theory should yield in faster cuts... and you should be able to apply a little more pressure. Imo, a saw that lacks grunt, belongs down the road. Lol

 

[Rich Fife]

Rich, I've ported 1000s of saws,

I dont doubt it.

When I say that this one pulls as I want it too...I'm not blowing smoke up your ass.

So, I'll tune out. Good luck.

I'm just commenting on my observations from watching your video. I'm listening to the saw and the tone changes... that's the 1st and most obvious sign for the amount of pressure being applied... 2nd, I watch the video again to see how much pressure is being applied to the saw... more specifically I'm Watching how much the suspension moves in comparison to the tone... then I watch the video a couple more times to be sure I see and hear what I think I did.
I know a few guys on other channels that'll move their body and move their arms to give the appearance that they're applying load but their saws never change tone... I'm not saying you did that, I'm just saying I see it alot... For a while I was commenting on Briscos videos... asking him to dog into the wood and feed the saw... now when I watch his videos, his saws are getting it!!!
ANYWAY,
It looks like your 462 cuts faster than stock... but, I'd love to see a video of it with a 20" bar where you're dogged in and loading the saw...
I know a bunch of loggers up here that would like to run a 462 that doesnt lack torque.... these guys mostly run short bars, 20".

 

[lehman live edge slab]

idk man. If it works for others saws, smaller/bigger cc saws, it should work for the 462.

I disagree with this. And this is my stance, a saw that 'Free cuts' or cuts with minimal down force to keep the chain speed up isnt removing as much material as it could be... if you're able to dog in and feed the saw without dropping excessive rpms, that saw should beat the saws that you have to baby.

On saws that lack grunt... a skip tooth shouldn't rob as much power when compared to a full chisel. It should also allow for faster chain speeds which in theory should yield in faster cuts... and you should be able to apply a little more pressure. Imo, a saw that lacks grunt, belongs down the road. Lol

That’s fine we can agree to disagree don’t really know what smaller saws make way more torque than a built 462 but could be wrong, I realize you gain chain speed with skip but is it twice the speed like would be technically required to cut as fast as twice the cutters. If you notice the fast cutters in saw racing are smooth and don’t dog in hard slowing the saw down but maybe they do it wrong any you would be faster your way.

 

[Rich Fife]

If you notice the fast cutters in saw racing are smooth and don’t dog in hard slowing the saw down but maybe they do it wrong any you would be faster your way.

Come-on now, don't get all boohooey and petty, this is only a discussion and you shouldn't be taking it personal or tossing jabs... well, unless it makes you feel better. lol.
We will definitely have to agree to disagree... and that's OK man.
It doesn't make any sense to dog into small diameter soft popular... hell, a steak knife will make chips in that stuff.
You're comparing a sporting event that has been cultured... where the saws are turned up hot, small bars, special chains and in some cases fuels... to the practicality of daily usage, (firewood or logging).
That's like comparing Apples to Tomatoes or vice versa... guess it depends on the view point.
You take a large white oak... and a stock saw.... free cut and time it. Then do another cut where you dog in And allow the saw to work harder without making fall on its face... there's a fine line and this is where people can prove a point or if there is bias they'll push too hard to try and make their stance true.
Take a properly ported work saw and now you're going to see the separation.

But, like you said... we can agree to disagree. No harm no foul.

 

[wiwalker06]

IMO for a 60cc saw the 400C has lots of torque.

They do stock too.

 

[wiwalker06]

Didn’t say was choppy maybe a little more aggressive than you think they are, most people like the way the new saws are carrying more rpm in the cut and usually this turns out to be the faster method. Little lighter hand with more rpm same reason an 044 will beat an 038 mag even though the 038 has more torque. Don’t know what rim your running on the 462 but if it’s an 8 like some people try on them personally I think it’s too much. I also see zero point on skip chain for a 25-28” bar other than faster to sharpen. Even if you gain chain speed with the skip it’s not enough in my opinion to overcome having 1/2 the cutters.

The 044/440 also has more HP.
RPM and torque are not mutually exclusive. The term torque is resistance to a drop in rpm when loaded. Not literally, but that's what being discussed here. Back when the 372XP and MS440 where the latest 70cc saws for Husky and stihk the 372 not only out cut the 440 at a higher rpm, it did so with more torque. This was because the porting design on the 440 was a generation behind the 372. Same story with 357 and the 360 or the 360 and the 361.

 

[Maintenance Chief]

I wish Husqvarna would copy ,a GD ignition reset and a saw with fuel injection!
By far the MS441 should have never left the factory with out being a 77cc saw. With port work or mods it's my favorite saw for general use, ( ProMac700 2nd).
@Rich Fife idk why the guys in your area a puts 20inch bars on a 462 ? What I mean is that's 50-60cc territory unless I'm running an 8 pin. I've been using an ms362 with a 20" at work the last couple weeks and it's a good light saw, Hell my buddy runs his 562xp with a 24" ,would absolutely rock a 20"!
I've seen guys stall out my 088 and my 394xp, I never underestimate the power of ignorance, the solution would absolutely be a big gear drive saw!
First time it drags their ass over the log they will learn to lift.

 

[lehman live edge slab]

The 044/440 also has more HP.
RPM and torque are mutually exclusive. The term torque is resistance to a drop in rpm when loaded. Not literally, but that's what being discussed here. Back when the 372XP and MS440 where the latest 70cc saws for Husky and stihk the 372 not only out cut the 440 at a higher rpm, it did so with more torque. This was because the porting design on the 440 was a generation behind the 372. Same story with 357 and the 360 or the 360 and the 361.

357 is a nice saw but wouldn’t exactly call it a torque monster but you’re 100% a husky guy because only Stihl that’s good is a husky copy. Actually more to a saw than speed in my experience the stihls have always seem to hold up better over time but might just be the guys I know. Most of the guys i work with have switched from husky to Stihl over last 8-10 years.