Husqvarna 562XP - A Tale of Woe

[HumBurner]

If it had a steel caged bearing, you'd be needing a new jug and slug too.

I'm still curious what the failure rate/hours is nylon vs. steel

It's not cost effective to replace bearings, at least not at a shop, and it's barely cost effective to do the shortblock route.

 

[Mastermind]

I'm still curious what the failure rate/hours is nylon vs. steel

It's not cost effective to replace bearings, at least not at a shop, and it's barely cost effective to do the shortblock route.

I have no idea why either one fail.....but neither fail often. I've heard that the usual cause of failure is a out of square bearing bore.

 

[HumBurner]

I have no idea why either one fail.....but neither fail often. I've heard that the usual cause of failure is a out of square bearing bore.

Interesting.

Have you witnessed the out-of-square yourself? If so, was it discernible while the saw was operating?

 

[Mastermind]

Interesting.

Have you witnessed the out-of-square yourself? If so, was it discernible while the saw was operating?

I'm just repeating things I've heard. @Spike60 probably know more.

 

[Spike60]

The only real issue with AT, is that it becomes a distraction. A saw arrives scored/wiped. Had it been a non-AT saw, proper diagnostics as to why it failed would likely have been employed. But we got all hung up on auto-tune and those silly print outs and forgot we were fixing a chainsaw. Basic troubleshooting never really took place, the saw was rebuilt, and no doubt failed due the original fault not being found. Simple things like water in the fuel get overlooked because of the suspicion that AT is the likely cause of any problem. AT should be looked at LAST, not first.

There was a bearing pocket alignment issue on some of the early 372XT's, but that is the only example I'm aware of.

I was lucky enough to be "connected", and had the advantage of being able to talk to product specialists in Sweden on a lot of stuff. They did extensive testing that showed plastic cages lasted longer, over a wider temperature range than steel cages. These choices are made at the engineering level, not the bean counter level. There's a lot of "I'm smarter than those guys" chatter on the internet. Walt loves to debate the plastic vs steel cage thing. For hours.

Staying up to date on service bulletins is important. And it's nothing new. You'd all be quite entertained reading service bulletins going back into the 2xx series saws and finding the good ole days were not as perfect as we like to remember. There is a ton of information to be accessed, vs the inclination to play Sherlock Holmes that many suffer from. There times when you're experiencing the mystery before the solution has been found, and that can be frustrating.

Many bearing issues have historically been supplier related. About a year ago, the 550m2 bearing supplier was changed from SKF to HQW for improved durability. The seals involved do not interchange between the 2, just as an example of the need to stay on top of things. Similarly, the incorrectly fitted seals on some bearings was a supplier issue, that was able to be corrected by same. Any change is accompanied by the relevant serial number range. Such info is listed on both the service bulletis and IPL updates. If you don't know when changes took place, you can't even order the right parts.

I understand most dealers don't deep dive into this info. Particularly where saws are sold in compact tractor and motorsports shops. The result is that many of you guys know far more about saws than those dealers do. But be careful drawing conclusions from small and inadequate sample size. I saw a LOT of saws pass over my bench over the years. Thousands. A failure is always more newsworthy than a saw that has no issues. So, when something is amiss, how much of a problem do I see? Even within an identified serial number range, all saws will not experience the potential problem. The concern that every saw is going to blow up is unfounded.

Worst thing for the PTO bearing is a too tight chain. Some customers were notorious for this, and would destroy the bottom end of any saw. Other customers never had problems. Some take care of their tools, some don't.

How's that for a rant, Randy? That'll teach ya to tag me in a post.

 

[Mastermind]

How's that for a rant, Randy? That'll teach ya to tag me in a post.

That was fantastic my friend. AND...it was exactly why I tagged you. Thank you very much for sharing your experience with us Bob.

 

[HumBurner]

The only real issue with AT, is that it becomes a distraction. A saw arrives scored/wiped. Had it been a non-AT saw, proper diagnostics as to why it failed would likely have been employed. But we got all hung up on auto-tune and those silly print outs and forgot we were fixing a chainsaw. Basic troubleshooting never really took place, the saw was rebuilt, and no doubt failed due the original fault not being found. Simple things like water in the fuel get overlooked because of the suspicion that AT is the likely cause of any problem. AT should be looked at LAST, not first.

There was a bearing pocket alignment issue on some of the early 372XT's, but that is the only example I'm aware of.

I was lucky enough to be "connected", and had the advantage of being able to talk to product specialists in Sweden on a lot of stuff. They did extensive testing that showed plastic cages lasted longer, over a wider temperature range than steel cages. These choices are made at the engineering level, not the bean counter level. There's a lot of "I'm smarter than those guys" chatter on the internet. Walt loves to debate the plastic vs steel cage thing. For hours.

Staying up to date on service bulletins is important. And it's nothing new. You'd all be quite entertained reading service bulletins going back into the 2xx series saws and finding the good ole days were not as perfect as we like to remember. There is a ton of information to be accessed, vs the inclination to play Sherlock Holmes that many suffer from. There times when you're experiencing the mystery before the solution has been found, and that can be frustrating.

Many bearing issues have historically been supplier related. About a year ago, the 550m2 bearing supplier was changed from SKF to HQW for improved durability. The seals involved do not interchange between the 2, just as an example of the need to stay on top of things. Similarly, the incorrectly fitted seals on some bearings was a supplier issue, that was able to be corrected by same. Any change is accompanied by the relevant serial number range. Such info is listed on both the service bulletis and IPL updates. If you don't know when changes took place, you can't even order the right parts.

I understand most dealers don't deep dive into this info. Particularly where saws are sold in compact tractor and motorsports shops. The result is that many of you guys know far more about saws than those dealers do. But be careful drawing conclusions from small and inadequate sample size. I saw a LOT of saws pass over my bench over the years. Thousands. A failure is always more newsworthy than a saw that has no issues. So, when something is amiss, how much of a problem do I see? Even within an identified serial number range, all saws will not experience the potential problem. The concern that every saw is going to blow up is unfounded.

Worst thing for the PTO bearing is a too tight chain. Some customers were notorious for this, and would destroy the bottom end of any saw. Other customers never had problems. Some take care of their tools, some don't.

How's that for a rant, Randy? That'll teach ya to tag me in a post.

Great information and perspective

 

[Stump Shot]

Worst thing for the PTO bearing is a too tight chain. Some customers were notorious for this, and would destroy the bottom end of any saw. Other customers never had problems. Some take care of their tools, some don't.

/\
This.
Some folks will heed good advice when given, while others seem superior of their ability to stay with the status quo, no matter the cost.

 

[Stump Shot]

Staying up to date on service bulletins is important. And it's nothing new. You'd all be quite entertained reading service bulletins going back into the 2xx series saws and finding the good ole days were not as perfect as we like to remember. There is a ton of information to be accessed, vs the inclination to play Sherlock Holmes that many suffer from. There times when you're experiencing the mystery before the solution has been found, and that can be frustrating.

For anyone interested in this information on old Husqvarna saws I posted a link where it can be found under the Resorces Tab.
Also links to free IPL's and Service Manuals are listed for even the newest models there as well from HL Supply.

These along with a pressure/vacuum pump and block offs, will get most of the heavy lifting done on diagnosis of running issues.

 

[afleetcommand]

The reason most manufacturers don't go with a metal cage is that bearing failure is certain on almost all professional models.

When the plastic cage fails it just spits a little bit of debris out of the muffler.
When a metal cage fails it often wipes the cylinder.


Consider this approach when thinking about metal cage bearings.

Respect you, not buying this. Don't really have a horse in the race as I'm not selling either saws or services. just have a little "documented" experience, receipts tangible vs. hearsay. I've built saws from 1970's and 1980's even 371 1990's era chassis with the original skf steel caged bearings. So their demise aren't "certain" at all. Second I've built saws from toasted 372 XT's with nylon cages where the balls come completely out and rattle around destroying everything. AND I have seen steel caged bearings fail where the cages didn't break up and go thru a saw, although like nylons balls they can. SO when the nylons do fail, and they can just like anything else; the balls can be set free to destroy everything. In fact I did a video where part of a ball from a nylon caged failure was mashed into the case. So no...this is a bit BS from my experience. I hear it a lot usually from Stihl focused builders/mechanics & now Husqvarna sales types who DO have a "horse" in the race. Over the last 15 plus years the frequency of failures I've seen one vs. the other has had me actually put the steels in my 2172 and 372 builds. Haven't regretted it. AND the 372saws I have built that went into production logging work never had bearing failure even now, and some have been out there almost ten years. AND they FAR outlasted their stock OEM "nylon" selves. I didn't build cookie GTG saws, most were for loggers and their crews so kept the RPM's close to stock. But I'm not going to argue, everyone has an opinion. I'll continue to put my money and reputation on building with steel caged bearings on all the saws where they are an option. From L77's ( Yup all steel ) thru to current 372's when their nylons fail and they are caught before the ball are released into the cases. Maybe I'll dig out an old video, actually one of a few during that time...I was as surprised as anyone to what I saw with these OEM saws. This video is documentation of one of many I saw fail this way. INCLUDING btw a rash of Stihl 461's as well that had both a lot of time and were tweaked to spin faster than they were designed to. Have to say my "theory" on the early 372 issues was a balance & heat issue. Interesting I saw a marked reduction in issues on 372 after 2017. Know what got changed? Crank. IF the nylons are kept within their designed parameters they last, but if they fail....if you are LUCKY you just get a little mud. But more often than not ..well check out the video. What I saw. Often. BTW THIS saw is still running. Went from a Logger to a tree service. I see it from time to time and it is BEAT now but still runs as of last summer. The issue it did have was the little "pin" for the chain brake wobbled the hole and is gone. No more chain brake. Take away for me? Keep saws builds from stressing those nylons past their design parameters with much more heat, pressure, or RPM's than stock because the production guy WILL finish a day when those "lean" signs occur if the saw lets him. And then you have this:

 

[Duke Thieroff]

Respect you, not buying this. Don't really have a horse in the race as I'm not selling either saws or services. just have a little "documented" experience, receipts tangible vs. hearsay. I've built saws from 1970's and 1980's even 371 1990's era chassis with the original skf steel caged bearings. So their demise aren't "certain" at all. Second I've built saws from toasted 372 XT's with nylon cages where the balls come completely out and rattle around destroying everything. AND I have seen steel caged bearings fail where the cages didn't break up and go thru a saw, although like nylons balls they can. SO when the nylons do fail, and they can just like anything else; the balls can be set free to destroy everything. In fact I did a video where part of a ball from a nylon caged failure was mashed into the case. So no...this is a bit BS from my experience. I hear it a lot usually from Stihl focused builders/mechanics & now Husqvarna sales types who DO have a "horse" in the race. Over the last 15 plus years the frequency of failures I've seen one vs. the other has had me actually put the steels in my 2172 and 372 builds. Haven't regretted it. AND the 372saws I have built that went into production logging work never had bearing failure even now, and some have been out there almost ten years. AND they FAR outlasted their stock OEM "nylon" selves. I didn't build cookie GTG saws, most were for loggers and their crews so kept the RPM's close to stock. But I'm not going to argue, everyone has an opinion. I'll continue to put my money and reputation on building with steel caged bearings on all the saws where they are an option. From L77's ( Yup all steel ) thru to current 372's when their nylons fail and they are caught before the ball are released into the cases. Maybe I'll dig out an old video, actually one of a few during that time...I was as surprised as anyone to what I saw with these OEM saws. This video is documentation of one of many I saw fail this way. INCLUDING btw a rash of Stihl 461's as well that had both a lot of time and were tweaked to spin faster than they were designed to. Have to say my "theory" on the early 372 issues was a balance & heat issue. Interesting I saw a marked reduction in issues on 372 after 2017. Know what got changed? Crank. IF the nylons are kept within their designed parameters they last, but if they fail....if you are LUCKY you just get a little mud. But more often than not ..well check out the video. What I saw. Often. BTW THIS saw is still running. Went from a Logger to a tree service. I see it from time to time and it is BEAT now but still runs as of last summer. The issue it did have was the little "pin" for the chain brake wobbled the hole and is gone. No more chain brake. Take away for me? Keep saws builds from stressing those nylons past their design parameters with much more heat, pressure, or RPM's than stock because the production guy WILL finish a day when those "lean" signs occur if the saw lets him. And then you have this:

I get it and also respect you.

I have no horse in the race either, I'm not really an "equipment" guy. I sell a very humble amount of equipment every year. It's not my main focus.

Really, what I am saying is this:
-Bearing failures are imminent on a lot of machines regardless of cage type (if they are maintained well enough to run to that stage of failure)
-Bearing failure is not always directly related to cage material. The failure is multi faceted and depends on the model
-If the cage fails, a metal one will wipe a cylinder, or damage other components a high percentage of the time, if a plastic fails, the percentage or damage to other components is much lower.


I've seen 562s in various states of disrepair and all failures in service bulletins. The 562 specifically has faced bottom end failures as a result of an aggregate of problems that Husqvarna has "attempted" to fix. If it were indeed simply a cage issue, why would they have gone back to the drawing board at least 4 times on that design (filtration changes, crankcase changes, piston changes, bearing changes) at great cost, to try and remedy it, when they could just change the bearing cage material?

It's often the case people just want to see the one simple boogey man they can point their finger at and say "there he is, the ruination of my chainsaw." It happens with AutoTune frequently, because people don't understand and lazy mechanics, Facebook groups and people sharing on online forums perpetuate the nonsense that every problem with an AT or MT saw is related to the fuel delivery system and not the same maintenance and mechanical failures that plague every other chainsaw. The metal cage bearing is a common trope.

In summary, it is hard to quantify how long a bearing should last, outside of lab conditions, as the failure mode is related to a number of factors and not simply the cage material.

It is stated on "controlled environment" packages of meat when you buy them :

"Color is not an accurate indicator of freshness"

Maybe we can ask the chainsaw manufacturers for a little help here as well :

"Bearing cage material is not an accurate predictor of bearing lifespan"

 

[Mastermind]

Respect you, not buying this. Don't really have a horse in the race as I'm not selling either saws or services. just have a little "documented" experience, receipts tangible vs. hearsay. I've built saws from 1970's and 1980's even 371 1990's era chassis with the original skf steel caged bearings. So their demise aren't "certain" at all. Second I've built saws from toasted 372 XT's with nylon cages where the balls come completely out and rattle around destroying everything. AND I have seen steel caged bearings fail where the cages didn't break up and go thru a saw, although like nylons balls they can. SO when the nylons do fail, and they can just like anything else; the balls can be set free to destroy everything. In fact I did a video where part of a ball from a nylon caged failure was mashed into the case. So no...this is a bit BS from my experience. I hear it a lot usually from Stihl focused builders/mechanics & now Husqvarna sales types who DO have a "horse" in the race. Over the last 15 plus years the frequency of failures I've seen one vs. the other has had me actually put the steels in my 2172 and 372 builds. Haven't regretted it. AND the 372saws I have built that went into production logging work never had bearing failure even now, and some have been out there almost ten years. AND they FAR outlasted their stock OEM "nylon" selves. I didn't build cookie GTG saws, most were for loggers and their crews so kept the RPM's close to stock. But I'm not going to argue, everyone has an opinion. I'll continue to put my money and reputation on building with steel caged bearings on all the saws where they are an option. From L77's ( Yup all steel ) thru to current 372's when their nylons fail and they are caught before the ball are released into the cases. Maybe I'll dig out an old video, actually one of a few during that time...I was as surprised as anyone to what I saw with these OEM saws. This video is documentation of one of many I saw fail this way. INCLUDING btw a rash of Stihl 461's as well that had both a lot of time and were tweaked to spin faster than they were designed to. Have to say my "theory" on the early 372 issues was a balance & heat issue. Interesting I saw a marked reduction in issues on 372 after 2017. Know what got changed? Crank. IF the nylons are kept within their designed parameters they last, but if they fail....if you are LUCKY you just get a little mud. But more often than not ..well check out the video. What I saw. Often. BTW THIS saw is still running. Went from a Logger to a tree service. I see it from time to time and it is BEAT now but still runs as of last summer. The issue it did have was the little "pin" for the chain brake wobbled the hole and is gone. No more chain brake. Take away for me? Keep saws builds from stressing those nylons past their design parameters with much more heat, pressure, or RPM's than stock because the production guy WILL finish a day when those "lean" signs occur if the saw lets him. And then you have this:

I get it and also respect you.

I have no horse in the race either, I'm not really an "equipment" guy. I sell a very humble amount of equipment every year. It's not my main focus.

Really, what I am saying is this:
-Bearing failures are imminent on a lot of machines regardless of cage type (if they are maintained well enough to run to that stage of failure)
-Bearing failure is not always directly related to cage material. The failure is multi faceted and depends on the model
-If the cage fails, a metal one will wipe a cylinder, or damage other components a high percentage of the time, if a plastic fails, the percentage or damage to other components is much lower.


I've seen 562s in various states of disrepair and all failures in service bulletins. The 562 specifically has faced bottom end failures as a result of an aggregate of problems that Husqvarna has "attempted" to fix. If it were indeed simply a cage issue, why would they have gone back to the drawing board at least 4 times on that design (filtration changes, crankcase changes, piston changes, bearing changes) at great cost, to try and remedy it, when they could just change the bearing cage material?

It's often the case people just want to see the one simple boogey man they can point their finger at and say "there he is, the ruination of my chainsaw." It happens with AutoTune frequently, because people don't understand and lazy mechanics, Facebook groups and people sharing on online forums perpetuate the nonsense that every problem with an AT or MT saw is related to the fuel delivery system and not the same maintenance and mechanical failures that plague every other chainsaw. The metal cage bearing is a common trope.

In summary, it is hard to quantify how long a bearing should last, outside of lab conditions, as the failure mode is related to a number of factors and not simply the cage material.

It is stated on "controlled environment" packages of meat when you buy them :

"Color is not an accurate indicator of freshness"

Maybe we can ask the chainsaw manufacturers for a little help here as well :

"Bearing cage material is not an accurate predictor of bearing lifespan"

In the end, we just fix and move on?

Seriously, you both made some excellent points.

Thank you.

 

[Stump Shot]

In the end, we just fix and move on?

I believe so yes, it's kinda like the old Midas Man commercials, pay me now or pay me later. Pay now with E-free fuel with plenty of oil in the mix and on the bar and a good sharp chain or pay for repairs later. As it's pretty much a moot point with this model of saw anyways, as a bearing and seal or a loaded crankcase from Husqvarna is going to have to go back in regardless.

Maybe we can ask the chainsaw manufacturers for a little help here as well :

Sprinkle a little asbestos in the plastic mix maybe? I dunno. Lol

 

[Bob95065]

Ok, an update.

Last weekend I went to the dealer for parts. They had the bearings and seal in stock. The saw is not a Mark 2 and used an older bearing. The PTO side was $10 and the flywheel side $60. Ouch. They said because it was for and older model they'll never use it and gave me the paitmr for $40. I ordered the rest of the parts I needed online. Husqvarna parts at the dealer have taken forever to get and I didn't wanna wait.

I put the saw together today and put a crappy B/C I had laying around on it so I could start it. It started right up and the carburetor tuned a smooth idle. I opened the throttle all the way and let it tune wide open. I let it idle for a while and shut it down.

I'm taking a few days off later in the week and plan to bring the saw to the shop to check the numbers. Once I know they are in family with other saws they've seen I'll bring it home abd cut some logs. I'll check the numbers again and if they are still "normal" I'll consider this saw repaired.

 

[Bob95065]

A couple Santa Cruz Mountain banana slightly that were on the driveway outside the garage. They only live on the west coast. This one was pretty big at about 6" long.

 

[Bob95065]

I forgot I have a question.

I was talking to the tech at the shop about the mixture numbers on the printout. When it failed they were near 100 which I expected to be rich. He insisted that indicated lean which made no sense. Can someone pleaee confirm that the higher the number the richer the mixture or the other way around? I would expect a higher number to mean richer mixture.

Last month he insisted that in a 2 stroke carburetor the diaphragm that contacted the needle lever is the fuel pump. I tried to explain that it was the metering diaphragm but quickly saw I wasn't getting anywhere. I take what I'm told with a grain of salt up there.

 

[Tomos770]

Cant recall where I have read that info (either here or on Arboristsite).....but "healthy" H&L numbers/parameters must be between 7x-9x....

EDIT: numbers are in a first post!

Husqvarna 562XP - A Tale of Woe

I have a Husqvarna that I got not running in pieces. The piston had light scoring but the cylinder was clean. I got no other information with this saw like how this happened, how it ran, any history of problems, etc. I put a Meteor piston and a Caber ring in it and started the saw to be sure...

opeforum.com

 

[Spike60]

Make sure they are on the aware of this service bulletin when selecting your parts. This bearing change was accompanied by a crankcase change and they do not interchange. As you can see, this was a change in the original 562. Has nothing to do with Mark 1 or Mark 2.

 

[afleetcommand]

I forgot I have a question.

I was talking to the tech at the shop about the mixture numbers on the printout. When it failed they were near 100 which I expected to be rich. He insisted that indicated lean which made no sense. Can someone pleaee confirm that the higher the number the richer the mixture or the other way around? I would expect a higher number to mean richer mixture.

Last month he insisted that in a 2 stroke carburetor the diaphragm that contacted the needle lever is the fuel pump. I tried to explain that it was the metering diaphragm but quickly saw I wasn't getting anywhere. I take what I'm told with a grain of salt up there.

A quick overview, those "numbers" are about how long the solenoid stays closed in units of time. SO the lower the number the less time closed, more open therefore more fuel available to be "carbureted" It's STILL a carburetor. Conversely the LARGER the number the LONGER the solenoid stays closed, therefore less fuel available. Typically on the 562's lower then 40 means its wanting to send more fuel into the carburetor and is a more "rich" condition. Usually correcting for some issue where more fuel is needed to get it to "max" possible RPM's. And conversely since the autotune in hunting to get to max possible RPM's in any situation, if things like a air filter is plugged it will lean things out to get to the highest RPM possible. HERE is the thing that confused folks.

Lets say there is an air leak. At first the system will "cover" with more fuel....the numbers in operation history drop...down even into the teens. THEN if the piston of something fails to where the compression drops, the numbers go the OTHER way as the system still tries to cover the failure by leaning things to get to the max possible RPM.

SO that's why a good tech will look to error codes, max numbers along with the current numbers to help assess. the situation. ALL along with the standard things like compression and vac/pressure tests.

For me, the very second I've gone to a vac test means something is coming apart. SO using the information from CST with a quick brake clean & compression check ( and after the "basics" like fule line, spark & air filter checks ) can really save me time deciding if I need to dig into a saw.

 

[Bob95065]

Make sure they are on the aware of this service bulletin when selecting your parts. This bearing change was accompanied by a crankcase change and they do not interchange. As you can see, this was a change in the original 562. Has nothing to do with Mark 1 or Mark 2.View attachment 413355

I matched the SKF numbers pn the bearings in addition to using the Husqvarna parts numbers in the IPL. The IPL lists the bearings per saw S/N.