What's on your bench?

[MustangMike]

I guess I was hoping to trigger some discussion about the relationship of intake timing and muffler opening, if there could be any, but it seems that possibility was never addressed. I'm disappointed.

 

[Moparmyway]

I agree, and I did not think I did, here is what I stated:

"Now I'm not claiming this is a universal thing, but on the saw I have, it worked. (Asian 660 w/Cross P+C w/o base gasket).

My theory, and it is just a theory (I welcome comments both pro + con), is that these saws tend to have a lot of intake (often 82 or more) and that restricting the muffler a bit is keeping more of the charge in the cylinder."

Mike,
The guy driving the car in the right lane, going 60mph, that got hit by the truck is just as dead as the guy in the left lane that hit the truck first and caused that truck to shoot across the other two lanes.

Reread what I wrote, and tell me what might be able to be done to help you in this situation

Restricting the MUFFLER is never a good thing, we arent talking about tuned pipes here. You can NEVER pick and choose what your theory applies to

I guess I was hoping to trigger some discussion about the relationship of intake timing and muffler opening, if there could be any, but it seems that possibility was never addressed. I'm disappointed.

So, when you need $0.50 to buy some gum, and your wallet is empty, you won't look under the couch cushions ?

Disappointed in what Mike ?
You have a golden opportunity to make some forward progress here .......... and you're disappointed ?

 

[MustangMike]

I'll tell you what Kevin. Next time we are at the same GTG, I'll bring this saw, and I'll make a few timed cuts as is.

Then I will give you the other muffler I pulled off of it, you can install it and tune it as you wish, and we will see what the saw likes.

Sound fair?

 

[usmcbuckwild]

Both of you make valid points, in my humble novice opinion.

The relationship of intake-intake duration/timing and muffler intrigues me (I don’t know enough to formulate an opinion and will research this on my own to educate myself). But, limiting the results of a comparison (and gains/losses) by not exploring tried and true methodology does more to undermine a determination than to support it. If it were me, given the stated situation with 2 identical saws, I would swap all the comparative supporting elements between the saws, i.e. swap the carb from saw 1 to saw 2 and verify results. Simplest and cheapest way to ensure gains/losses experienced can be narrowed down to the muffler. You could be experiencing better performance with a more restrictive muffler simply due to a carb malfunction or difference in carb castings, etc.

Just my $0.02. Not trying to interject myself into your debate, just observations from an education minded 3rd party with nothing productive to add to the conversation.

 

[Moparmyway]

I'll tell you what Kevin. Next time we are at the same GTG, I'll bring this saw, and I'll make a few timed cuts as is.

Then I will give you the other muffler I pulled off of it, you can install it and tune it as you wish, and we will see what the saw likes.

Sound fair?

No Mike .............
Here is why.

You are still limiting what can be done to that saw.
You arent exploring metering height or popoff pressure
you arent exploring anything except "turn the screws"
You arent even considering venturi opening or choke shaft and screw limitations.
You might be running outta fuel with a restricted inlet opening
You could have a whole different outcome with a muffler with different exhaust exits in different places
What if you could use more timing with more fuel ?? Would you see more power ?

You keep setting limits because you arent thinking "big picture" and are only seeing the carb screws as your only means for adjusting things, when in reality, there could be more in what you have, you just arent seeing it.

Tell YOU what ............. I'll keep this 395 stock, except the muffler mod. You run it and you tell me why it has such huge exhaust openings, yet runs so dang good.

Yo tell me why the muffler with dual 1.25" openings caused Sondres 395 to fall on its face, yet the muffler with dual 1" openings caused his saw to come alive ................. all the while the modded OEM muffler was behind both of the other two, and that had two outlets with deflectors welded on to the muffler.

Or even better ............. let me take your saw and let me play with it so I can see whats what ............... which is what you should be doing before you go jumping to conclusions about intake timing and muffler restrictions


Take a 5.0 liter Mustang, put a cam in it, add a good intake, and put a supercharger on it, keep the stock fuel injectors with Flowmaster single chamber dual exhausts. Bet it runs strong, yes ?

Now you add 24# or 30# injectors with a matched Mass Air meter and you would think that you have a whole different motor in it ................ WHY ??

FUEL Mike ................ fuel along with airflow makes all the difference.


I had an Mtronic saw that would make most think had major problems .......... turns out all it needed was a little more fuel. Matter of fact, I have had non Mtronic saws tune to 14k and 4 stroke, yet fall on their face in the cut .......... add some more fuel and they get majorly angry and tune to 16k while still 4 stroking.

Should I go on ????

Let me ask you one important question ............ did you try tuning your saw in the wood with either muffler, or was this just a swap mufflers and run scenario ?

Tune is everything Mike .............. learn to tune in the wood, or you will allways be that guy that gets different results from everyone else

I offered for you to continue this in a PM ............ you have chosen not to.
I will only respond to you about this is a PM, moving forward, as this thread needs to get back on track

 

[drf256]

No Mike .............
Here is why.

You are still limiting what can be done to that saw.
You arent exploring metering height or popoff pressure
you arent exploring anything except "turn the screws"
You arent even considering venturi opening or choke shaft and screw limitations.
You might be running outta fuel with a restricted inlet opening
You could have a whole different outcome with a muffler with different exhaust exits in different places
What if you could use more timing with more fuel ?? Would you see more power ?

You keep setting limits because you arent thinking "big picture" and are only seeing the carb screws as your only means for adjusting things, when in reality, there could be more in what you have, you just arent seeing it.

Tell YOU what ............. I'll keep this 395 stock, except the muffler mod. You run it and you tell me why it has such huge exhaust openings, yet runs so dang good.

Yo tell me why the muffler with dual 1.25" openings caused Sondres 395 to fall on its face, yet the muffler with dual 1" openings caused his saw to come alive ................. all the while the modded OEM muffler was behind both of the other two, and that had two outlets with deflectors welded on to the muffler.

Or even better ............. let me take your saw and let me play with it so I can see whats what ............... which is what you should be doing before you go jumping to conclusions about intake timing and muffler restrictions


Take a 5.0 liter Mustang, put a cam in it, add a good intake, and put a supercharger on it, keep the stock fuel injectors with Flowmaster single chamber dual exhausts. Bet it runs strong, yes ?

Now you add 24# or 30# injectors with a matched Mass Air meter and you would think that you have a whole different motor in it ................ WHY ??

FUEL Mike ................ fuel along with airflow makes all the difference.


I had an Mtronic saw that would make most think had major problems .......... turns out all it needed was a little more fuel. Matter of fact, I have had non Mtronic saws tune to 14k and 4 stroke, yet fall on their face in the cut .......... add some more fuel and they get majorly angry and tune to 16k while still 4 stroking.

Should I go on ????

Let me ask you one important question ............ did you try tuning your saw in the wood with either muffler, or was this just a swap mufflers and run scenario ?

Tune is everything Mike .............. learn to tune in the wood, or you will allways be that guy that gets different results from everyone else

I offered for you to continue this in a PM ............ you have chosen not to.
I will only respond to you about this is a PM, moving forward, as this thread needs to get back on track

Kev,

I just wanna know if you used DCEN or DCEP to weld that muff.

 

[Moparmyway]

Kev,

I just wanna know if you used DCEN or DCEP to weld that muff.

AC

 

[Sty57]

AC

Kevin, what tach do you like?
I'm in the market for a new one.

 

[Fruecrue]

View attachment 122612

Gained with another opening

You should move your vise closer to the outlet.

 

[huskyboy]

Yo tell me why the muffler with dual 1.25" openings caused Sondres 395 to fall on its face, yet the muffler with dual 1" openings caused his saw to come alive ................. all the while the modded OEM muffler was behind both of the other two, and that had two outlets with deflectors welded on to the muffler.

Very interesting how Sondre’s saw fell on its face with the larger opening and the stock one didn’t. I’m gonna take a guess you modded the carb on the stock one? What carb do they have the walbro or the tilly? Both same carb?

 

[RI Chevy]

Mike: Think outside the box. Also try a few cuts with a box chain and see if there is any difference in cut or speed quality.

A 660 is a pretty big motor. I never knew a big block 454 engine to like a smaller exhaust opening.

Kevin makes very valid points.

Open your eyes to outside the box thinking! [emoji106]

 

[MustangMike]

A lot of what Kevin just stated is in agreement with what I have said. Keven just wants me to do things that most of use don't do with work saws.

I know Kevin is very knowledgeable, I know he builds great saws, and I know he is very competitive.

But now, consider for us "commoners". If the open muff provides more HP, but does it with a chart that looks like a linear straight line up, and the restricted muff provides an arched HP curve, but with a slightly lower top HP #, I will opt for #2, and I believe that is what I did. When that open muffler saw was put into a large piece of Chestnut Oak and leaned on, it died in the cut. The more restricted saw did not.

I'm not out to build the fastest saw, I want to build a solid working saw within my available timeframe, knowledge, and abilities, and I believe I did just that. When this saw gets used for milling, peak HP won't mean squat.

 

[RI Chevy]

I hear you Mike. Just for the good of the order, maybe do up a couple of videos. Same bar and chain. Same log. Same saw, different mufflers. Retune appropriately. You know we love videos. Lol

 

[Moparmyway]

Very interesting how Sondre’s saw fell on its face with the larger opening and the stock one didn’t. I’m gonna take a guess you modded the carb on the stock one? What carb do they have the walbro or the tilly? Both same carb?

Stock carb, never unbolted anything except the muffler

Sondres saw acted like that because it runs outta fuel with the bigger openings. I wish I had more time to modify his carb to work with the bigger exhaust, but sadly, I just didn’t and settled for the smaller dual exits.

My 395 will need more fuel after she gets ported. Unless I work on the carb, she too will fall on her face in the cut, once ported

 

[huskyboy]

Stock carb, never unbolted anything except the muffler

Sondres saw acted like that because it runs outta fuel with the bigger openings. I wish I had more time to modify his carb to work with the bigger exhaust, but sadly, I just didn’t and settled for the smaller dual exits.

My 395 will need more fuel after she gets ported. Unless I work on the carb, she too will fall on her face in the cut, once ported

Doh I forgot to consider Sondre’s saw is ported and uses more fuel to begin with. Makes sense now. Remember I mentioned at the gtg my other ported 395 was running lean after few cuts, well I left it with dan and most likely it needs carb work. I’m interested to see what he comes up with when he has the time.

 

[T.Roller]

Doh I forgot to consider Sondre’s saw is ported and uses more fuel to begin with. Makes sense now. Remember I mentioned at the gtg my other ported 395 was running lean after few cuts, well I left it with dan and most likely it needs carb work. I’m interested to see what he comes up with when he has the time.

May also check how your fuel line is routed on the tank. Mine seemed to run out of fuel after long cuts and it turned out that the fuel line was being pinched ever so slightly between the tank and the cases.

 

[huskyboy]

May also check how your fuel line is routed on the tank. Mine seemed to run out of fuel after long cuts and it turned out that the fuel line was being pinched ever so slightly between the tank and the cases.

That is a great point, I had that happen on a 394 and thought it was the seals leaking. Also on a 385 too. I did have replace and check the line.

 

[T.Roller]

That is a great point, I had that happen on a 394 and thought it was the seals leaking. Also on a 385 too. I did have replace and check the line.

Yeap mine would do great until I put a 36" on it in a long cut. It was brand new and just ported. I was relieved to find that was all that was wrong.

 

[huskyboy]

Yeap mine would do great until I put a 36" on it in a long cut. It was brand new and just ported. I was relieved to find that was all that was wrong.

Makes sense, it probably didn’t flex the mounts enough with a short bar to pinch line. I had a 28” on the 385 I was working on when it did it.

 

[RI Chevy]

Damn Hooskies. LMAO