Tree Felling Technique Thread

[~WBF]

A 16" Green Lodgepole pine is just under 2000 lb
We fell for a couple A-Star helicopter in the winter of 2006/2007 & 2007/2008 up and down both sides of the Canadian Rockies.. We used a tiny little tape measure to measure the butts if it was close to 16". If the tree was in openings like around Aspen or Cottonwood then they had coastal like branches and wouldn't fly very good even if you bucked it So we started limbing some of these big wolfie branches. If it was tighter canopy then the crown was high and branches were regular so bigger than 16" we try to buck for a piece to combined with a stick close by. They would be flown to a hole somewhere close and burnt. I have seen 1,5OO set ablaze in a pile.

So in 2009 logging was belly up, Snag falling in gas and oil was good but it was spring break up. I worked as a live wire faller for Tamerak tree. (Lewis tree out of New York in the BC Interior for about four months. I will give you a few 'green' weights I worked out the weight at 30' were my buddy Ken the lead hand CUA that would have his climbers tie. Many were mainly 15" - 22" range for the most part. These were all beetle hit 'reds' that were red needles and dry. So it is safer yet. No 'wind sail' or top weight.
They are 90' footers. Some my be sorter closest to the power line with bigger branches on the opening. I do know heights from years of winter manual fall and burn and every site has a rep tree measured with a sunto with DBH & height. Lots are listed at 27 metres (89ft to 30m.+ (99 ft) . Smaller Dia then you may see 23 m to 25m

I think at 16" it would taper to 12" at 30' and 7" at 60' ect.
It worked out to 1,230 lb at a 14" average by 30' at 32 lb per cu ft. the top 60' is approx 750 LB with small branches average crown with close canopy stand.
The bottom 30' out weighed the top 60' by 480 lb.
Then I calculated the top 60'. An average of 6" by 60' = 452 lb
That leaves about 300 lb of branch weight.
The wood weight could be a smidge less than 32 lb per cu ft too.

We did big tall interior spruce as well. Nothing was set over 45 ft that I recall.
Even a heavy lean won't make enough difference. It would have to be laying flat almost.

A 2" increase at 18" with a taper down to 14" (16" ave by 30' was ..
1,684 lb
-1230_
______
452lb increase in the bottom 30' with an 18" butt over a 16" butt.

 

[Coltont]

No more than 2/3rds the height typically.

I would shoot it in that big fork & be gentle with any pull.

You want to just help it over with the cable, use wedges primarily, & the cable secondarily.


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Don't bang wedges without using caution on a standing dead tree. It can rain dead *s-word on you depending on the species.

 

[hseII]

Don't bang wedges without using caution on a standing dead tree. It can rain dead *s-word on you depending on the species.

Absolutely.

Have a spotter & don’t do much without backing up & watching.


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[Coltont]

Maybe this will help.
Or, confuse the chit out of everyone.
View attachment 174968

The largest limb is 90 degrees to the slight lean.
There is also a funky curve that kicks out under said limb.
Thats what has me wondering.

My Dad had said he wanted to drop it 5 years or so ago, but he wasnt sure what that would do.

I'm old enough now not to just fly blind into crap. Most of the time anyway.

The general consensus seems to be just fall towards lean.
Or would split the difference between the lean and the kick out be better? Would that mitigate the chance of it rolling on the stump? If memory serves that should allow the top to pass between 2 other bigger trees.

Seems your over thinking it. Be safe get an open path to escape, and dump the thing. It's dead so it shouldn't struggle real bad going through other trees. Dosent look hollow. Steep deep and run if your scared.

 

[Skeans1]

Seems your over thinking it. Be safe get an open path to escape, and dump the thing. It's dead so it shouldn't struggle real bad going through other trees. Dosent look hollow. Steep deep and run if your scared.

Or if you don’t feel comfortable get someone that is.


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[Coltont]

Or if you don’t feel comfortable get someone that is.


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Kinda what I was thinking.

 

[Shanesaw80]

A 16" Green Lodgepole pine is just under 2000 lb
We fell for a couple A-Star helicopter in the winter of 2006/2007 & 2007/2008 up and down both sides of the Canadian Rockies.. We used a tiny little tape measure to measure the butts if it was close to 16". If the tree was in openings like around Aspen or Cottonwood then they had coastal like branches and wouldn't fly very good even if you bucked it So we started limbing some of these big wolfie branches. If it was tighter canopy then the crown was high and branches were regular so bigger than 16" we try to buck for a piece to combined with a stick close by. They would be flown to a hole somewhere close and burnt. I have seen 1,5OO set ablaze in a pile.

So in 2009 logging was belly up, Snag falling in gas and oil was good but it was spring break up. I worked as a live wire faller for Tamerak tree. (Lewis tree out of New York in the BC Interior for about four months. I will give you a few 'green' weights I worked out the weight at 30' were my buddy Ken the lead hand CUA that would have his climbers tie. Many were mainly 15" - 22" range for the most part. These were all beetle hit 'reds' that were red needles and dry. So it is safer yet. No 'wind sail' or top weight.
They are 90' footers. Some my be sorter closest to the power line with bigger branches on the opening. I do know heights from years of winter manual fall and burn and every site has a rep tree measured with a sunto with DBH & height. Lots are listed at 27 metres (89ft to 30m.+ (99 ft) . Smaller Dia then you may see 23 m to 25m

I think at 16" it would taper to 12" at 30' and 7" at 60' ect.
It worked out to 1,230 lb at a 14" average by 30' at 32 lb per cu ft. the top 60' is approx 750 LB with small branches average crown with close canopy stand.
The bottom 30' out weighed the top 60' by 480 lb.
Then I calculated the top 60'. An average of 6" by 60' = 452 lb
That leaves about 300 lb of branch weight.
The wood weight could be a smidge less than 32 lb per cu ft too.

We did big tall interior spruce as well. Nothing was set over 45 ft that I recall.
Even a heavy lean won't make enough difference. It would have to be laying flat almost.

A 2" increase at 18" with a taper down to 14" (16" ave by 30' was ..
1,684 lb
-1230_
______
452lb increase in the bottom 30' with an 18" butt over a 16" butt.

I have to ask who you were working for falling for pine beetle in the Rockies slinging them out with an A-Star. Just curious as I’ve done a ton of falling for Pine beetle in the last 15 years and have never used a helicopter to move any of it, never heard of it before. Curious as to what company/companies were doing it.

 

[~WBF]

I have to ask who you were working for falling for pine beetle in the Rockies slinging them out with an A-Star. Just curious as I’ve done a ton of falling for Pine beetle in the last 15 years and have never used a helicopter to move any of it, never heard of it before. Curious as to what company/companies were doing it.

https://www.valhallahelicopters.com/commercial-helicopter-services/

https://www.sarvair.com/

Fifteen yrs? Never heard of 'cut and fly'? You must have worked some of those early years in BC?
We did the last Heli in BC finishing at 'break-up' of 2007. I cut about 7000 of the 29,000 That was the last year that BC did much of control work again..
It may have been the first year or two they used heli's.? I know it was new then. Price came down. Handful of fire fighting companies started leasing Helicopters and getting into it. Plus big survey companies that are actually tree planting companies started getting into the control end of things. Like Spectrem and Seneca, Celtic. Third year they didn't land a job and never bid it again. Actually Clint had engine troubles in the R-22 whilst viewing some jobs south of GP and crashed.
He shut 'er down at tree level and let her self rotate down. It was a storm and SARs wouldn't come and rescue them.
He would have died but Madden was able to get a fire going to keep them alive. Punctured lung.
The second year it was all Alberta. Had 4 contracts there. Canmore, Then right down the rockies to the US Border and finished in Grande Cache. Actually we all got this deadly flew with about 10 days left and they shut down for a week. and I just hung back and recovered. I got a job in Tumbler ridge on a big helli portable Seismic job. On by the kilometre. That was a good year. 2008 was the year the market crash. I got 10 months work in that year.
I worked for Sarver's. 4 Brothers that have a lot of companies.
So you had:
Sarver's
Abitibi helicopters LTD
Vallhalha helicopters
About 6-7 companies all together.
Another one out of kamloops
that was talked about a lot.. Can't recall?
.He was paying like $375. per day.
We made $600 a day contract.
One of the brothers was a Coast faller and he brought guys from the island and started out $500 but ended up going to $600 when I got there. Coast was about 480 -500 then. I didn't know him, I heard he was looking for Fallers. Called him up and he said "Ok, I'll give you a try" so I ask "What are you paying anyways" He said "We pay $600" ..So I said.." well I'll
definitely put the bush down for ya"..
He replys...."And i'm going to hold you to that"

Next yrs he phoned me as soon as they were awarded the contract. He said we are starting next week and I am going to need you to be there. So don't get busy.
Good guy to work for. Rented me a place, paid top buck, dropped me off at the door step and thanked me for the day.

Valhalla has a pic in the link.
A couple of Clint's As350 (A-star's)
He was leasing two when I started, then he bought one in New Brunswick and flew it out right onto the job. That one had the Rolls Royce 250 conversion That has a 2600lb payload.
I see he have another one.
Nice machines. Some good memories.
We chased about 9 wolves in a middle of a huge opening that was right by our staging area it would turn out. He did a nose dive right on top of them.. all you see is these big paws going in different direction as he pulled 'er up and spun back around flying around a few feet above the ground, flat out. It was like something out of cartoons. Awesome!!!
I put that guy into some small holes.
He was even patting himself on the back.. He said... " There is not a lot of guys that would go in a hole that size".
I laughed...Yeah I know..lol

Are you cutting this winter? The epidemic is over. No money anymore.
Srry for the long post...there is something wrong with me.

 

[Shanesaw80]

https://www.valhallahelicopters.com/commercial-helicopter-services/

https://www.sarvair.com/

Fifteen yrs? Never heard of 'cut and fly'? You must have worked some of those early years in BC?
We did the last Heli in BC finishing at 'break-up' of 2007. I cut about 7000 of the 29,000 That was the last year that BC did much of control work again..
It may have been the first year or two they used heli's.? I know it was new then. Price came down. Handful of fire fighting companies started leasing Helicopters and getting into it. Plus big survey companies that are actually tree planting companies started getting into the control end of things. Like Spectrem and Seneca, Celtic. Third year they didn't land a job and never bid it again. Actually Clint had engine troubles in the R-22 whilst viewing some jobs south of GP and crashed.
He shut 'er down at tree level and let her self rotate down. It was a storm and SARs wouldn't come and rescue them.
He would have died but Madden was able to get a fire going to keep them alive. Punctured lung.
The second year it was all Alberta. Had 4 contracts there. Canmore, Then right down the rockies to the US Border and finished in Grande Cache. Actually we all got this deadly flew with about 10 days left and they shut down for a week. and I just hung back and recovered. I got a job in Tumbler ridge on a big helli portable Seismic job. On by the kilometre. That was a good year. 2008 was the year the market crash. I got 10 months work in that year.
I worked for Sarver's. 4 Brothers that have a lot of companies.
So you had:
Sarver's
Abitibi helicopters LTD
Vallhalha helicopters
About 6-7 companies all together.
Another one out of kamloops
that was talked about a lot.. Can't recall?
.He was paying like $375. per day.
We made $600 a day contract.
One of the brothers was a Coast faller and he brought guys from the island and started out $500 but ended up going to $600 when I got there. Coast was about 480 -500 then. I didn't know him, I heard he was looking for Fallers. Called him up and he said "Ok, I'll give you a try" so I ask "What are you paying anyways" He said "We pay $600" ..So I said.." well I'll
definitely put the bush down for ya"..
He replys...."And i'm going to hold you that"

Next yrs he phoned me as soon as they were awarded the contract. He said we are starting next week and I am going to need you to be there. So don't get busy.
Good guy to work for. Rented me a place, paid top buck, dropped me off at the door steep and thanked me for the day.

Valhalla has a pic in the link.
A couple of Clint's As350 (A-starr's)
He was leasing two when I started. and then he bought one in New Brunswick and flew it out. right onto the job. That one had the Rolls Royce 250 conversion That has a 2600lb payload.
I see he have another one.
Nice machines. Some good memories.
We chased about 9 wolves in a middle of a huge opening that were right by our staging It would turned out as we took air. He did a nose dive right on top of them.. all you see is these big paws going in different direction. as he pulled 'er up and spun back around flying around a couple ft above the grown flat out. It was like something out of cartoons. Awesome!!!
I put that guy into some small holes.
He was even patting himself on the back.. He said... " There is not a lot of guys that would go in a hole that size".
I laughed...Yeah I know..lol

Are you cutting this winter? The epidemic is over. No money anymore.
Srry for the long post...there is something wrong with me.

I’ve worked with Spectrum and Sibola as well as other companies throughout the years in both BC and Alberta (mostly Alberta for fall and burn) but never worked where we heli moved beetle trees. We have always burned where we fell them. Did some heli logging in the interior but that’s a different job completely. Cut seismic lines and other oilfield falling jobs since fall of 1997, tons of heli work there.

Strange you say the epidemic is over and there’s no money anymore as the last 2 years have been my best years ever cutting beetle trees. This past winter we were south of Edson, AB near Robb getting $70/tree. 2 fallers and a guy helping buck, pile and burn on our crew had quite a few days where we averaged over 100 trees. 44,000 total trees on the job and a lot of plots with over 200 trees in them, most crews were making killer cash. It’s the best production falling job money wise out there. Sure you bust your ass every day but it sure pays for the hard work. You just have to know which jobs to take. I haven’t taken anything around GP in years as the plots are usually small and very spread out, hard to make money when you spend most of your day running around finding trees and doing kick-in’s.

 

[~WBF]

I’ve worked with Spectrum and Sibola as well as other companies throughout the years in both BC and Alberta (mostly Alberta for fall and burn) but never worked where we heli moved beetle trees. We have always burned where we fell them. Did some heli logging in the interior but that’s a different job completely. Cut seismic lines and other oilfield falling jobs since fall of 1997, tons of heli work there.

Strange you say the epidemic is over and there’s no money anymore as the last 2 years have been my best years ever cutting beetle trees. This past winter we were south of Edson, AB near Robb getting $70/tree. 2 fallers and a guy helping buck, pile and burn on our crew had quite a few days where we averaged over 100 trees. 44,000 total trees on the job and a lot of plots with over 200 trees in them, most crews were making killer cash. It’s the best production falling job money wise out there. Sure you bust your ass every day but it sure pays for the hard work. You just have to know which jobs to take. I haven’t taken anything around GP in years as the plots are usually small and very spread out, hard to make money when you spend most of your day running around finding trees and doing kick-in’s.

Right on. That's crazy! Pencil city.
Chasing the dream. I quite chasing the dream. To many greedy people sticking it to ya every way you turn. That has been my experience. That's forestry. That's the bottom feeding forestry contractors.
You must have made about 26 hundred that day? That's like winning the lottery or walking into a huge mushroom patch.
When your in good money sites, it's fun. The hardest days you will ever work is when you make the least amount of money Buddy of mine, Hayden, was on a job in Fort St John and did 70 tree by himself on the first day. They had a sites with 1,200.
All little pencils. Now that was the epidemic. Only time I ever cut big sites was for heli in the BC side of the Wapiti by Tumbler ridge. Almost 100℅ hit. DBH between 7" - 11" Over 80 tree a gas tank. 2.5 h to flatten 275. I never had a site like that. Best I have done was get was starting a site like 1:00 pm and partner took the other side. We put in 4 hours and a got 38 pencils in a full tree length fire.
Very small. So the side ones I could fall it across the lay and spin them on to the pile. I worked for Sibola fall & burn and Heli Falling. As well with spectrem.
Both a Joke. Sibola is in bed with a tree planting company that does the surveying and runs the job. WTF? So you have a bunch of tree planting mentality running fallers?
I believe they were in a three your contract. I couldn't sled to anything in my package.. everything is 1/2 a K, or 700 m walk ins. Steep and deep snow. Big trees. Making barricades on steep hills to hold the fire on the hill. All small little sites spread all over hells acres.
I told him that, This kind of thing is always done on day rate. ..he said...we have never done this on day rate. That's the difference. I put in a week and figured how much longer it will take So I said I want to see my next package that he said he would save for us. Well it was crap so we cleaned up our fires and left.
Spectrem gets $2 million contracts and uses bunchers and you get the big spread out pipes in the hills. 2 to 2 1/2 hour drive one way. Worked the whole season and they asked if I could help out on day rate falling scorched trees on buncher site.
There was 30 tree left for hourly.
They were little pencils. Never had a site like that all season. I was so pissed.
I have been on jobs with brand new guys no experience guys making a steady $800 a day and back early.
Drinking with the supervisor at nigh and getting to take their pick of the packages. I'm killing myself to make wages. Too much of a lot if chit.
It's to bad that they couldn't have paid by volume and seperate the men from the girls. So simple to do as well. I have never been in wood that you could run three guys. At some tine after I worked for spectrem I was going to organise a big co-op of fallers and all put up deposit and go after spectrem's work and send then packing for tossing me crumbs.
That was 70 a tree contract or employee?
Must be contract with truck and sled? I talked to a guy about 3 yrs ago and was getting 105 a tree in Grande cache. averaging about. 15-16 trees a day. He would be paying for everything. (Gas, hotel)
$20 to the helper and employer contributions.
I have made my best money on the saw fenceposting down Mulcher spray and snag falling by the kilometre on Seismic.
I mean not counting when I was a bottom feeding forestry contractor.

Is that a Bell 204 or 205 "Huey" in your avatar?

 

[Shanesaw80]

Right on. That's crazy! Pencil city.
Chasing the dream. I quite chasing the dream. To many greedy people sticking it to ya every way you turn. That has been my experience. That's forestry. That's the bottom feeding forestry contractors.
You must have made about 26 hundred that day? That's like winning the lottery or walking into a huge mushroom patch.
When your in good money sites, it's fun. The hardest days you will ever work is when you make the least amount of money Buddy of mine, Hayden, was on a job in Fort St John and did 70 tree by himself on the first day. They had a sites with 1,200.
All little pencils. Now that was the epidemic. Only time I ever cut big sites was for heli in the BC side of the Wapiti by Tumbler ridge. Almost 100℅ hit. DBH between 7" - 11" Over 80 tree a gas tank. 2.5 h to flatten 275. I never had a site like that. Best I have done was get was starting a site like 1:00 pm and partner took the other side. We put in 4 hours and a got 38 pencils in a full tree length fire.
Very small. So the side ones I could fall it across the lay and spin them on to the pile. I worked for Sibola fall & burn and Heli Falling. As well with spectrem.
Both a Joke. Sibola is in bed with a tree planting company that does the surveying and runs the job. WTF? So you have a bunch of tree planting mentality running fallers?
I believe they were in a three your contract. I couldn't sled to anything in my package.. everything is 1/2 a K, or 700 m walk ins. Steep and deep snow. Big trees. Making barricades on steep hills to hold the fire on the hill. All small little sites spread all over hells acres.
I told him that, This kind of thing is always done on day rate. ..he said...we have never done this on day rate. That's the difference. I put in a week and figured how much longer it will take So I said I want to see my next package that he said he would save for us. Well it was crap so we cleaned up our fires and left.
Spectrem gets $2 million contracts and uses bunchers and you get the big spread out pipes in the hills. 2 to 2 1/2 hour drive one way. Worked the whole season and they asked if I could help out on day rate falling scorched trees on buncher site.
There was 30 tree left for hourly.
They were little pencils. Never had a site like that all season. I was so pissed.
I have been on jobs with brand new guys no experience guys making a steady $800 a day and back early.
Drinking with the supervisor at nigh and getting to take their pick of the packages. I'm killing myself to make wages. Too much of a lot if chit.
It's to bad that they couldn't have paid by volume and seperate the men from the girls. So simple to do as well. I have never been in wood that you could run three guys. At some tine after I worked for spectrem I was going to organise
I big co-op of fallers and all put up deposit and go after spectrem's work and send then packing fir tossing me crumbs
That was 70 a tree contract or employee?
Must be contract with truck and sled? I talked to a guy about 3 yrs ago and was getting 105 a tree in Grande cache. averaging about. 15-16 a day. He would be paying for everything. (Gas, hotel)
$20 to the helper and employer contributions.
I have made my best money on the saw fenceposting down Mulcher spray and snag falling by the kilometre on Seismic.
I mean not counting when I was a bottom feeding forestry contractor.

Is that a Bell 204 or 205 "Huey" in you avatar?

That was $70/tree contract with truck and sleds, we took care of all the expenses. Job lasted just less then 3 months but after all expenses paid we averaged just over $1700/day, best I’ve ever done fall and burn. Ya I’ve also been on some good turn key seismic jobs, can make some great cash doing that as well but of course that has slowed down a ton.

That’s actually a 212 in the avatar pic. We were working outside of Golden, BC for CMH heli-skiing company using a Bell 407 through Alpine Helicopters transporting crews until we had one crash one morning. Luckily no one died, a few got pretty banged up though. After that they brought in the 212 to finish the job off. We usually don’t use a helicopter that big just for transporting crews.

 

[Coltont]

Big logs from a few years back. That's me, the midget . Cousin roy with the beard.

 

[XP_Slinger]

Big logs from a few years back. That's me, the midget . Cousin roy with the beard.

That’s awesome! What type of wood?

 

[Coltont]

That’s awesome! What type of wood?

Tulip poplar.

 

[XP_Slinger]

Tulip poplar.

Nice. I’ve got some good sized tulip poplar to take down in my woods, not that big mind you. How’s the holding strength on that species? I’ve never cut one before, just curious if I should make my hinge a little thicker on them. Thanks.

 

[Coltont]

Nice. I’ve got some good sized tulip poplar to take down in my woods, not that big mind you. How’s the holding strength on that species? I’ve never cut one before, just curious if I should make my hinge a little thicker on them. Thanks.

Ive had as many as 11 wedges in big poplar to get it to go where I wanted it. It holds well on the stump. Cuts like butter. Usually when they hit the ground 80 percent of the limbs break off and you mostly have stubs to cut off.

 

[XP_Slinger]

Ive had as many as 11 wedges in big poplar to get it to go where I wanted it. It holds well on the stump. Cuts like butter. Usually when they hit the ground 80 percent of the limbs break off and you mostly have stubs to cut off.

Thanks man. Good to know the hold wood at the stump is strong. Ya never know, that’s why I asked. I’ve also got some basswood to take down, that crap is like styrofoam, should be interesting.

 

[Coltont]

Thanks man. Good to know the hold wood at the stump is strong. Ya never know, that’s why I asked. I’ve also got some basswood to take down, that crap is like styrofoam, should be interesting.

Dont cut your hinge wood up super close if its leaning hard. Itll sit down on the bar/chain real fast. Basswood sucks. It grows like a weed and you dammed near cant give it away. But the pollen produces some of the best early honey ive ever had. The do allot of handmade carvings out of basswood as well.

 

[Czed]

Maybe this will help.
Or, confuse the chit out of everyone.
View attachment 174968

The largest limb is 90 degrees to the slight lean.
There is also a funky curve that kicks out under said limb.
Thats what has me wondering.

My Dad had said he wanted to drop it 5 years or so ago, but he wasnt sure what that would do.

I'm old enough now not to just fly blind into crap. Most of the time anyway.

The general consensus seems to be just fall towards lean.
Or would split the difference between the lean and the kick out be better? Would that mitigate the chance of it rolling on the stump? If memory serves that should allow the top to pass between 2 other bigger trees.

Down yet?

 

[redline4]

Down yet?

No.
Rained hard all day yesterday.
Got sidetracked with other chit today.
It will likely be 2 weekends before I get to it.