The OEM vs. AM Cylinder Debate

[Simondo]

Here is a little conundrum for Ya... by way of perception regardless of being able to make something of a AM top end or not.
There you are looking at a Bog standard saw for sale on CL or Ebay ...... Its the saw you like ...Its sparkly and looks good for its age .
Add says it has a genuine OEM top end .
Now...... same saw ...BUT.. add says "Has a AM cylinder fitted" .....which one would you want the most ?

 

[Stump Shot]

Here is a little conundrum for Ya... by way of perception regardless of being able to make something of a AM top end or not.
There you are looking at a Bog standard saw for sale on CL or Ebay ...... Its the saw you like ...Its sparkly and looks good for its age .
Add says it has a genuine OEM top end .
Now...... same saw ...BUT.. add says "Has a AM cylinder fitted" .....which one would you want the most ?

Point taken. What if the add were more local and said "Kick ass firewood saw for sale, come and try it out" , do you think the smile on the guys face will disappear if you tell him there is an AM top end on the saw he was just so impressed with? I've not found one yet who did, and I do tell them what the saw is made of. The trick to it all is in the mechanics but more so in the willingness not to fail. If I were to put on a cylinder that I knew was not the best, would it be my fault or the manufacturers? I say it would be mine and mine alone. Without personal responsibility the whole thing goes to heck.

 

[RI Chevy]

To be honest, any saws for sale that have AM jugs on them, I stay away from. Not sure why, I just do.
Unless I knew the builder.

 

[afleetcommand]

My cut, AM is a relative term. The manufacturing technology required to make really good cylinders is available to all who would want to do that. As with anything details can cost money. With few exceptions a "better" process and/or material, all things being equal costs money as well. Companies Like Mahle have in house experience to go along with the available technology and a history of working with OEM's. In multiple industries for a very long time. They probably more than any other company on the planet understand how to be successful in replicating a design intent for the OEM's....which is why for years they were a favorite pick. I remember when Stihl took some cylinder manufacturing inhouse..If I remember correctly is was Brad Snelling who looked at the results with disappointment a few years back. Was an entire thread on the "other" site about what was actually acceptable! SO bottom line? Its possible AM can match and even exceed OEM. Look at all the AM performance parts in the Automotive industry! Even more complex shapes masterfully replicated and even improved for the racing & serious enthusiasts. Motorcycle industry as well.

Second....the design of the tooling. This goes into business model and market place. Companies like Mahle can build to an OEM spec with the expectation there will be enough volume to justify better and more up front expensive manufacturing equipment...and along with those processes often come a better product. Smaller companies and business model often times result in manufacturing processes not quite as sophisticated therefore the parts may not start with as good fundamentals. Casting quality, material consistency, machining etc. Some start with effectively sand castings! Low pressure. Bottom line here? Larger the business model, the more likely a better process to reproduce a product will be invested in.

Third understanding the design and the definition of "win". As someone mentioned, for the AM's often time if it makes a dead saw run and the cost is low to attract a buyer. Thats good enough. OEM have all kind of liability and longevity requirements an AM parts company doesn't care about...

This will turn into an essay. SO many things that effect the quality of a part from marketing intent to manufacturing capability.

To this point in time, regardless of theoretical possibilities, I have yet to see another company actually match the Mahle offerings. Period. Other OEM suppliers may be OEM quality, a definition defined BY the OEM's.....which to this point in time typically has been better than anything I've seen from the pure AM parts suppliers who haven't yet cracked into the major "OEM's".

My bet? Is sooner or later one of two things happens...OK three. First, nothing changes.....all ways feels that way. Second an AM company goes and tries to earn there way into the spot light with better "performance" (power) parts. Third A company other than Mahle decides to really get serious and match Mahle's capabilities for a lower price.

My humble opinion....

(Still remember like it was yesterday sitting in on a GM symposium....the subject? The perception of quality! The goal? To rev up their sales force to sell.........those late 1980's generation junkers. )

 

[Simondo]

Point taken. What if the add were more local and said "Kick ass firewood saw for sale, come and try it out" , do you think the smile on the guys face will disappear if you tell him there is an AM top end on the saw he was just so impressed with? I've not found one yet who did, and I do tell them what the saw is made of. The trick to it all is in the mechanics but more so in the willingness not to fail. If I were to put on a cylinder that I knew was not the best, would it be my fault or the manufacturers? I say it would be mine and mine alone. Without personal responsibility the whole thing goes to heck.

There is a balance to be had i dare say Steve to this OEM/AM thing and as i point out a "Good" AM cylinder is a workable situation.
I make the point about OEM ...it is something I take into account when looking over a saw and i wonder how it effects the perception. Il hazard a guess "Most" would like there saw to have its factory top end on it if posable ....what they do after is another matter

 

[TJ the Chainsaw Mechanic]

 

[brandonstclair20]

I have an quick oem vs aftermarket question. What about circlips? I know to stay away from the Chinese clips. Are wiesco clips as good as oem?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Stump Shot]

There is a balance to be had i dare say Steve to this OEM/AM thing and as i point out a "Good" AM cylinder is a workable situation.
I make the point about OEM ...it is something I take into account when looking over a saw and i wonder how it effects the perception. Il hazard a guess "Most" would like there saw to have its factory top end on it if posable ....what they do after is another matter

What I do first, is think of what expectation the saw is to have. If fixing a dead saw it's one thing if it does not have a current owner, it's a whole other issue if it does have an owner that knows how well that saw ran, in that case I better get it right so OEM or maybe a Meteor could go into play here. Sometimes the only choice is the AM and very few choices at that if a less popular model. I've one in the shop right now where it's down to the used market for parts, some AM parts would be welcome at times. As far as the average Joe's perception of AM parts is that of the Auto parts industry, they have no problem with repairing their car with AM auto parts. When I tell most people they just shrug their shoulders and say that's OK. Professionals in the know are a different story, best get it right for those guys as you won't see them again if you don't. While they like saving money as much as the next guy, there is also a reasonable expectation of quality implied as well. So in summary, I think there is room for all of these parts to be used if a fella can just sort out what to put where and why.

 

[afleetcommand]

Point taken. What if the add were more local and said "Kick ass firewood saw for sale, come and try it out" , do you think the smile on the guys face will disappear if you tell him there is an AM top end on the saw he was just so impressed with? I've not found one yet who did, and I do tell them what the saw is made of. The trick to it all is in the mechanics but more so in the willingness not to fail. If I were to put on a cylinder that I knew was not the best, would it be my fault or the manufacturers? I say it would be mine and mine alone. Without personal responsibility the whole thing goes to heck.

Dare I post a video? Put some pure AM saws into normally skeptics hands and filmed the results. They were polite....but fact was they were skeptical at best which is why I was invited....local farm folks. Heard about some copy saws and were wanting to see, not expecting anything close to what they experienced.....a study in expectations. Actually it was funny because you could tell WHAT they were used to running by how they operated those saws....really a study of people, just folks; and their reaction when their expectations were different than their experience. Two Husqvarna owners. One Stihl bigot. All confused at the end..

 

[spencerpaving]

Cyl "roundness"....no taper...and piston to Cyl clearance are more important to me than what a port "looks"like....jmo

 

[husky362]

I have a kafar 372bb I bought in 2007 I ported it the saw probably has 400 hrs on it

Ran good no problems I tore it down the other day to find 3/8 strip of plating gone between transfer port and exhaust
On flywheel side piston looked good no other damage anywhere else chrome is slick

Did It do this damage because I ported it and it flaked away ... Would a OEM chrome lined hold up better after porting
Should we be porting Chrome lined cylinders

 

[Mastermind]

I have a kafar 372bb I bought in 2007 I ported it the saw probably has 400 hrs on it

Ran good no problems I tore it down the other day to find 3/8 strip of plating gone between transfer port and exhaust
On flywheel side piston looked good no other damage anywhere else chrome is slick

Did It do this damage because I ported it and it flaked away ... Would a OEM chrome lined hold up better after porting
Should we be porting Chrome lined cylinders

After 400 hours any jug could be in that same condition.

 

[Jughead]

400 hrs is a lot of hours

 

[jmssaws]

assuming the same exact port work, on both cylinders, and the same piston and rings, then the only differential becomes the plating material... no?

does one plating material create more drag than another?

Most am cylinders have very poor timing and transfers that can't be as good as the oem ones no matter how much you grind.
You can make them the same numbers but that doesn't mean that they'll run the same.
Some am cylinders are very good also.
I have a bb 460 cylinder that is as strong or stronger than any oem cylinder I've done but that's pretty rare.

 

[drf256]

Cyl "roundness"....no taper...and piston to Cyl clearance are more important to me than what a port "looks"like....jmo

100%

At least the 90* axis of the bore will be trued up with cutting the band and base, but you make an excellent point.

 

[RIDE-RED 350r]

@afleetcommand touches on an interesting point when referencing the automotive and powersports AM world. The only thing I would say is that those markets have largely developed and grown from demand placed on them by the racing community and has spilled over into the '"enthusiast" segment. This being the case, there really isn't much room for sub-par quality and performance one could argue is common with parts of chinese origin. Plus, those industries got established many years ago back when there was little trade with China. It would be more than an uphill battle for chinese manufacturing companies to stake out a market share of say Honda dirt bike upgrade and mod parts for example. I have put wrenches to a few youth ATVs of chinese origin. And while they almost copy the old Honda lay-down engines to a "T", the quality just isn't the same in alot of cases. I have 30+ year old Hondas still running strong and still running original ignition and electrical components. The chinese clones will never be able to say that. But, they are cheap to buy, cheap to repair, and fun for the kids, so they do serve a legitimate purpose.

With saws, there really isn't an already well established industry for quality "hop-up" parts driven by a racing/performance based market. But we do have alot of saws that get worked hard and burn down. It's easy to see how there comes to be so many rebuild options of chinese origin. Like Spike said, they will get a blown up saw running again.

 

[Chainsaw Jim]

The only debate to me seems to be how much to pay for a saw with an am top end. I see too many ask full value after going that route.

To me there's no reason a quality am jug can't be ported to run as good as oem. It may not necessarily be a work saw anymore but it'll kick ass.

 

[Stump Shot]

Finished up this saw yesterday with the cylinder that I mentioned in my first post. It runs phenomenally well and beats the snot out of my own saw with a Mahle cylinder set up the same. Will be going to a casual firewood cutter. Also very affordable for him with the AM parts used and fully disclosed before it was even built. Not doing this is just flat out wrong in my book. I may not make a pile of money right now, but eventually will make a buck or two when it needs serviced.

 

[astnmacgto]

Finished up this saw yesterday with the cylinder that I mentioned in my first post. It runs phenomenally well and beats the snot out of my own saw with a Mahle cylinder set up the same. Will be going to a casual firewood cutter. Also very affordable for him with the AM parts used and fully disclosed before it was even built. Not doing this is just flat out wrong in my book. I may not make a pile of money right now, but eventually will make a buck or two when it needs serviced.

View attachment 58130

Good looking saw, except for all those wood chips.......

 

[Stump Shot]

Good looking saw, except for all those wood chips.......

Thanks and don't worry, they came off OK. Was fun making them though. Which is kinda the whole point to this craziness.