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Part Four: Compression

Maintenance Chief

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But, after a bump in compression alone, more fuel is needed. I’ve shaved cylinder heads and reduced head gasket thickness to increase compression. Every single time, I’ve needed to increase fuel flow.

While I agree that an increase in compression will increase the thermal efficiency of an engine, that’s not the only thing happening with the increase of compression. The motor also has a significant increase of intake vacuum, and correspondingly, an increase in fuel is needed

Part of the increase in compression is heat production, the molecules of air are more spread out in a hot environment, the need for more fuel is for expansion of the air molecules to join up with fuel. Extra fuel also cools the charge which also helps.
Just what I've read, but it is easier to see fuel condensing on a cold day .
 

drf256

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So, why does a saw go from 4 stoking to 2 stroking when a load is placed on the engine?

Why does a hot saw, at the end of a long cut, need to be richened up to stay in tune when the entire engine is already hotter?

I was thinking the same, good comment.




Guess I need to state what I think 4 stroking is first, something like a combination of reduced scavenging effieicinay not clearing enough exhaust gasses and our simple carbs making an overly rich condition at high rpms, until it gets so bad that there is more exhaust gas than fresh charge and the mix wont even burn, needing a second attempt at scavenging to have enough fresh charge to be an ignitable mixture.

The explanation I gave myself was that when you load the saw rpms drops, as rpm keep dropping eventfully scavenging efficiency returns enough to clear the cylinder each cycle, so as to fire on every stroke, this idea is of course 100% non founded guess work.

Other reasons?



Don't know, hot less dense fuel?

I’ve actually pondered these questions myself. I’m not sure, but I believe it’s possibly explained by a few reasons.

First is the law of conservation of energy. If you are dumping fuel in and there is no way to convert all the energy to heat and/or kinetic energy there will be a mismatch and the fuel/air ratio that is set up for power while cutting will be wrong.

The minute one loads a saw, cylinder temps go up and we tune the saw for power in-the-cut at that ratio. It’s mismatched free spooling because there isn’t enough heat in the cylinder for proper combustion, hence the 4 stroking misfiring sound.

In addition, the charge cools a saw engine to a very large extent. I know people running saws with almost no cylinder fins left for years without any issues. I’ve wanted to try a saw with a bunch of fins removed on purpose with a lower compression psi and see if it ran identically to a higher compression saw. Was just a thought. If compression is really only adding heat, then the power should be equal. But then there is your explanation of peak pressure to consider as well.

So piss revving a saw results in a saw that’s too cool inside and therefore cannot properly combust the stoichiometric A/F we are set at.

I’d venture to say that if we knew all the answers, this wouldn’t be as fun.
 

Moparmyway

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A. drf256 and myself were talking about the direct benefits of compression itself, how does squeezing your charge tighter create more power? I never meant to venture off to how does compression ratio effect cylinder fill.

B. What is your take on how the dish Vs non dished piston effects the volumetric efficiency in regards to 261 vs 262?

C. My statement is a similar air/fuel mix being be ignited in a smaller space, leads directly to higher pressures, to more power.
A. Understood, however, I'm not sure that its possible to consider one without the other when just a bump in CR happens

B. I'd take a flat top or popup (the way I do them) any day over a dished piston. In just about any situation I'd probably make this same decision

C. Understood and agreed !

A. Maybe I should have said per unit fuel used, are you talking four stroke now? where yes I agree a higher CR can increase VE by virtue of stronger vacuum, but two stroke, I've not considered it that important a factor, figured that is from under the piston, happy to reconsider though.

B. But again everyone knows the more air and fuel you can utilise per cycle the more power you can make, nothing new here.

C. But what directly is the benefit of increasing compression ratio?
A. I've seen this in both 2 and 4 strokes

B. Absolutely !!

C. I believe it directly increases volumetric efficiency, intake vacuum, and thermodynamic efficiency (mechanical action related to heat)
 

Moparmyway

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Interesting stuff for sure. But the situation in an engine is dynamic.

The 261 has more swept volume than the 262, but it’s compressed into a larger space. The dished piston is responsible for both of these volume increases in the 261. It’s a ratio, not a constant.

Not claiming to be an expert here at all, enjoying the conversation and hoping it’s not construed as an argument.

I see 2 major things here with the increased compression.

Firstly, it allows more complete and therefore productive combustion and more cylinder pressure. Increased cylinder pressure from a faster more complete burn has to play a major role in pressure production. Higher peak pressure, as you state, has to play a role. Similar to theory on longer connecting rods increasing dwell time at TDC and creating more overall power.

Secondly, it’s dynamic. So at 14,000 rpm the swept volume is decreased in both saws and the dynamic compression ratio is reduced. There isn’t enough time to fill the cylinder, so there is only partial charge compression. The 262 has more parasitic loss from the increased compression but can still have better combustion at the higher rpm. I’ve actually not seen much a reduction in rpm from increasing compression in saw in the real world.

You mention forced induction. As you know, the reason static CR is reduced in a forced induction engine is because the effective CR is much higher than the static one. The cylinder starts out filled with more volume under pressure already.

In 4 stroke engines, static CR increase are needed for higher output engines for multiple reasons. One big one that often overlooked in intake valve closing time. You need the higher static CR in order to have enough compression to create power in an under filled cylinder at lower rpm. As rpm rises, there is better volumetric efficiency but also not a fully filled cylinder because of less time. It’s all a balancing act.
Agreed on pretty much everything, but I'll add that I've allways thought the longer rod changes the angle placed on the piston pin and crankshaft journal, creating a stronger lever.
 

Sawrain

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Think I need to attach a mass airflow flow sensor to a chainsaw intake and experiment, or just think about it for a few months.

Appreciate the labelled answers.
 

drf256

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Agreed on pretty much everything, but I'll add that I've allways thought the longer rod changes the angle placed on the piston pin and crankshaft journal, creating a stronger lever.
Side loads the piston less, but also postulated to create more overall power because the piston dwells at TDC for longer and allows more peak pressure to build.

That why my 406ci SBC runs the 350ci 5.7” rods and not the 400’s smaller rods (IIRC 5.65”?).
 

Moparmyway

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So, why does a saw go from 4 stoking to 2 stroking when a load is placed on the engine?

Why does a hot saw, at the end of a long cut, need to be richened up to stay in tune when the entire engine is already hotter?
Because the excess fuel is not doing any work, more fuel = more power, so less power needs less fuel, hence the blubbering

Because most of the excess fuel is needed to cool the rest of the saw, that heat affects the intake charge vaporization rate. I look at it very simply that 4 stroking is wet combustion, 2 stroking is not. In my little mind, a saw is tuned for the load it sees, then as she cools (after the cut) there is excess fuel due to the reduced load
 

Moparmyway

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Think I need to attach a mass airflow flow sensor to a chainsaw intake and experiment, or just think about it for a few months.

Appreciate the labelled answers.
And I appreciate this intelligent discussion !
You bring alot of thoughts to consider in a very professional manner.
I'm enjoying this discussion more than any other in a very long time, thank you !!!!!
 

drf256

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And I appreciate this intelligent discussion !
You bring alot of thoughts to consider in a very professional manner.
I'm enjoying this discussion more than any other in a very long time, thank you !!!!!
Very much agreed. SR is a smart man. Meaningful discussion is what this place should be about, not immature mudslinging that often dominates it.
 

Bjorn

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Hello. How much extra compression Will a well made expension chamber make? It helps the engine suck fuel from the crankcase, and then puch the unburned fuel back in the cylinder. How many psi?
 

Sawrain

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And I appreciate this intelligent discussion !
You bring alot of thoughts to consider in a very professional manner.
I'm enjoying this discussion more than any other in a very long time, thank you !!!!!

Thank you, very nice to chat, petty we just have more questions.

Very much agreed. SR is a smart man. Meaningful discussion is what this place should be about, not immature mudslinging that often dominates it.

And thank you for the thoughtful discussion.

Now I am wondering what experiments can be performed to confirm or deny any of the topics from today.

A few thoughts on 4 stroking as well, but I really better do some actual work.
 

Ketchup

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Slight change in focus, but here’s some interesting stuff related to squish and chamber shape:

Just something I stumbled on:

And an ongoing discussion:
 

NateSaw

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Slight change in focus, but here’s some interesting stuff related to squish and chamber shape:

Just something I stumbled on:

And an ongoing discussion:
Good reads. Thanks Caleb 👍
 

drf256

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Slight change in focus, but here’s some interesting stuff related to squish and chamber shape:

Just something I stumbled on:

And an ongoing discussion:
Good read. I disagree with the measurements on squish. I routinely do a 90* bend over the piston pin to the side and have found it to be extremely accurate.
 

Ketchup

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Good read. I disagree with the measurements on squish. I routinely do a 90* bend over the piston pin to the side and have found it to be extremely accurate.

I usually do exactly as you describe before I disassemble. If it’s a saw model I am not familiar with I’ll do all four points once I have removed the rings. But if I have done a lot of that model the faster one point measurement is all I need.
 
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