Let’s Talk 404

[Wilhelm]

I disagree

That is Your right.

Yet, unless You come over and try "my" chains on my saws under my cutting conditions Your disagreement is merely an opinion and not real life fact.

Too many variables!
The most determing one:
- what does a chainsaw operator consider to be "a sharp chain"

As far as I am concerned, if You utilize Your saws bucking spikes Your chain is not sharp.
To me a chain is sharp when I can hold the throttle wide open, let go of the front handle and watch the saw eat through a bucking cut without the saws spikes even touching the log.

Live & let live, lets agree to disagree on this matter

 

[Wilhelm]

Work chain

Play chain

 

[Squish9]

I don't have any experience with the Oregon chipper but the Carlton B3S has been working pretty well for me. Mostly running it on a 660 and the cut speed has been pretty close to 404 semi for me.

I tried sharpening it on the grinder once but the way the side plate is shaped appears to respond to better to using a file. I use the old specs of filing it to 35/90/60.

Definitely has more vibration than the semi and a lot more than full chisel

 

[Bill G]

That is Your right.

Yet, unless You come over and try "my" chains on my saws under my cutting conditions Your disagreement is merely an opinion and not real life fact.

Too many variables!
The most determing one:
- what does a chainsaw operator consider to be "a sharp chain"

As far as I am concerned, if You utilize Your saws bucking spikes Your chain is not sharp.
To me a chain is sharp when I can hold the throttle wide open, let go of the front handle and watch the saw eat through a bucking cut without the saws spikes even touching the log.

Live & let live, lets agree to disagree on this matter

Yes

 

[HumBurner]

That is Your right.

Yet, unless You come over and try "my" chains on my saws under my cutting conditions Your disagreement is merely an opinion and not real life fact.

Too many variables!
The most determing one:
- what does a chainsaw operator consider to be "a sharp chain"

As far as I am concerned, if You utilize Your saws bucking spikes Your chain is not sharp.
To me a chain is sharp when I can hold the throttle wide open, let go of the front handle and watch the saw eat through a bucking cut without the saws spikes even touching the log.

Live & let live, lets agree to disagree on this matter

I have to wonder where chipper chain was designed and what wood types it was intended for (North American, European, Australian)

 

[Squareground3691]

I have to wonder where chipper chain was designed and what wood types it was intended for (North American, European, Australian)

https://foresthistory.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/JoeCox_SawChain.pdf

 

[Squish9]

Cox gets all the credit but Atkins were making chain before and after the period. Oregon had some legal issues with them and had to pay to use some of their designs/ patent's.

Chipper was the default chain for a long time. The earliest Oregon catalog I have been able to find is from 1955 and they sold 2 types of chain Chipper and a square filed full chisel.

Semi chisel is an improved version of chipper that came along much later on, around the late 60's / early 70's.

A lot of chain design also came from Carlton, he worked for Cox at Oregon untill leaving to start his own manufacturing company.

 

[Bill G]

A couple books of many. My collection is about as extensive as Bill G stories

 

[Squish9]

A couple books of many. My collection is about as extensive as Bill G stories

View attachment 435708

Any chance you could share pics of the whole book? I have a thing for old chain catalog's.

I have a copy of this one,

 

[Bill G]

Any chance you could share pics of the whole book? I have a thing for old chain catalog's.

I have a copy of this one,

Not really sure how to share it.

 

[Nutball]

Not really sure how to share it.

With a good steady camera, excellent lighting, and this forum.

 

[Bill G]

With a good steady camera, excellent lighting, and this forum.

Well I have a cheap camera, poor lighting, and yes I am on this forum. The best damn digital camera I ever had was a yellow "Sponge Bob" camera that the lumberyard had in a discount bin 20 years ago. That thing took great pics. Sadly it is way out of date today. My phone is a cheap Android. It originally cost me $49.99 with no tax. When I destroyed it the replacement was $16. My monthly service is $33.10 including all taxes and fees and it is unlimited.

Yeah I am cheap.

 

[Bill G]

I did go get a scanner but I am not happy about wasting money on it. The state said I had to have it as that was the only way they would take my tax and business forms. They seem to "lose" mailed copies. I also need to find a kid to show me how to run it.

 

[Moparmyway]

You did post that picture, didn’t you ????

Easy peasy …..

1. Open book to page 1/2

2. Take picture with same device

3. Post picture the same way you did Wednesday night

 

[blades]

I got a dirty threatening letter from the state regarding mailing the sales tax forms in. My computer was down and I couldn't use their system. To me it was an affront. Do you want the money or not? They are constantly changing the flipping system as well and you have to
install a new pass code ,what worked last quarter doesn't now. Drives me out of my mind.

 

[Bill G]

You did post that picture, didn’t you ????

Easy peasy …..

1. Open book to page 1/2

2. Take picture with same device

3. Post picture the same way you did Wednesday night

The pictures will lack the detail and clarity that is needed: graphics are one thing tiny text is another.

 

[Bill G]

I got a dirty threatening letter from the state regarding mailing the sales tax forms in. My computer was down and I couldn't use their system. To me it was an affront. Do you want the money or not? They are constantly changing the flipping system as well and you have to
install a new pass code ,what worked last quarter doesn't now. Drives me out of my mind.

It is amazing how difficult some states and localities make things. I got into a huge dispute with my local county in Illinois regarding getting copies of records. They wanted $5 for the first page and $2 per page after that. It did not matter whether they printed them or emailed them. I said that was complete horse chit. They said it was Illinois state law. I again said that was horse chit. I asked if it was state law then why is it that other counties email them for free. I pointed out that the county to the south with only 10,000 folks emailed me exactly what I needed lickety split for the cost of a "thank you mamm and have a great afternoon" They said "well we have to dig them out and that costs money". Once again horse chit. I pointed out that back in 2018 when the new courthouse was completed all records were digitized. In planning the new courthouse they did not plan for an area to store the physical records. They were going to move them down the street to the old county office building. Well when they started to do that the structural engineers said hell NO!. The old office building was not structurally strong enough to hold the sheer weight of the records. At that point all records were digitized and paper copies tossed out. They had no excuse but stood by the $5/$1 charge. I then phoned a few county board members and discussed it with them. A few days later I got a call asking me what records I wanted and where I wanted them sent.

 

[Squish9]

The pictures will lack the detail and clarity that is needed: graphics are one thing tiny text is another.

I'll be happy with some blurry pics if that's all you can get, I just like seeing what was in the old books and how things have changed.

I will look into started a thread in the manuals section to share the ones I have at some stage on the weekend

 

[Bill G]

I'll be happy with some blurry pics if that's all you can get, I just like seeing what was in the old books and how things have changed.

I will look into started a thread in the manuals section to share the ones I have at some stage on the weekend

I will see what I can do. I used to have one that if I did not know better I would swear had a picture of my mother in it.

 

[el33t]

Cox gets all the credit but Atkins were making chain before and after the period. Oregon had some legal issues with them and had to pay to use some of their designs/ patent's.

In addition to Atkins, of course, other chainsaw companies have tried to equip their products with chains that operate on the principle described in Hassler's patent. Of course, Atkins (successfully) sued such companies for patent infringement. Among these companies was Seattle-based Mill & Mine Supply, which sold chainsaws under the Titan brand. It just so happened that a certain Joseph B. Cox was employed there.
In June/July 1946, he (or his lawyer) applied to the patent office for a patent on a chainsaw that used a chain identical to the one used by his employer, where he was laid off. However, the patent office rejected all the claims of Cox's application as identical to Hassler's patent.
On December 6, 1946, Atkins successfully sued M&M Supply for patent infringement.
Borg-Warner (Atkins) reached an agreement with Oregon in December 1952. Shortly thereafter in 1953, Oregon began selling chisel chains. Later still, they also began offering scratcher chains for a while.

Chipper was the default chain for a long time. The earliest Oregon catalog I have been able to find is from 1955 and they sold 2 types of chain Chipper and a square filed full chisel.

Semi chisel is an improved version of chipper that came along much later on, around the late 60's / early 70's.

A lot of chain design also came from Carlton, he worked for Cox at Oregon untill leaving to start his own manufacturing company.

The definition of semi chisel cutters can vary and, for example, today is often used for cutters that are not of the (full) chisel or (Cox's) chipper type.
But if we assume that it is the cutters that were so defined by Oregon, then such chains were introduced by them in 1962 (patent application in 1961, R. Carlton as the inventor) for “small” chainsaws (3/8).
And another type of cutters, which are now often referred to as semi chisel, or chamfer chisel, was patented by Atkins (Borg-Warner) in the early 1950s.