Husqvarna 350 comparison video with cut times!

[Mattyo]

 

[Mattyo]

 

[Mattyo]

 

[Mattyo]

The curves that seemed to fit best were 3rd order polynomial trendlines. when the dyno gets a little more dialed it, it'll be exciting to see how numbers change. also, keep in mind, I'm using numbers from one of usually 3 runs per saw.... i used the "best" looking run out of each.

 

[drf256]

Great job

 

[Chainganger]

I assume it is the Highway 45 mm p&c kit you used. Did you use Caber rings?
Will it be the "Deal if the Day"?

 

[Mattyo]

yes, hyway 45mm BUT BUT BUT.... the exact cylinder I used is no longer available. the hyway kit has been updated ....then newer version is not the same as in the challenge. it is one of the main confounders of this whole excercise. sorry

if you look at my vids, you'll see my conclusions on what cylinder to use and why.... especially why to use the hyway going forward.

dunno if it'll be on DOTD....or not

 

[malk315]

Those poly curves are a work of art. Very cool.

Hopefully w/ some more work on the dyno we can get the data that pops out to be closer to what the curves look like. We have bunch more in store.

 

[David Young]

Nice work!

I agree with Al

here is my vote more uppers and open the muffler up more

David

 

[Mattyo]

I can play w/ my hyway a bit more... I don't like doing it, but I can do it

I really have no need for more saw though.... this quest was out of personal curiosity...and I don't know how curious I am to tear apart my saw again. ....we will see

 

[paragonbuilder]

yes, hyway 45mm BUT BUT BUT.... the exact cylinder I used is no longer available. the hyway kit has been updated ....then newer version is not the same as in the challenge. it is one of the main confounders

This is exactly why most builders don't use aftermarket. The consistency is not there and while an individual jug can be made to run strong, it's not worth the hassle to figure out each jug when there is consistency available. Time is money. For the guy playing with one saw they are a decent option.
Check out a good summary from Dave here

Here is the long and short of the issue, IMHO.

Disclosure:
I sell both OEM and several brands of aftermarket cylinders including Big Bore kits.
I make more profit on an aftermarket kit than on an OEM kit, even though the OEM has a price tag much higher in most cases.
I have worked with / provide cylinders to several dozen different builders and try like hell to pay attention to all of their feedback.

Most aftermarket cylinders are an attempt to "clone" an OEM cylinder.
Cost is also a major concern for the aftermarket makers, if they spend as much as the OEM to make a perfect cylinder they have to charge as much as OEM and there is no benefit.
In making the clone the aftermarket gets as close as they can and then calls it good enough.
As any of the builders here can tell you a change of 1 degree or a thousandth of an inch in certain areas of the cylinder creates changes in performance.
There are also a ton of variations in OEM cylinders so if the one they use as a sample isn't the best and then they do a decent job in cloning they may end up with a cylinder that visually looks fine and has good fitment to the crankcase and crank but produces less power due to inefficiencies and inaccuracies in the copying.
So when this cylinder goes to market the average homeowner dude is reasonably happy that his recently dead saw now makes 89% of the power it formerly made, but that isn't enough for the pros and pro builders/mechanics.
Since "there is no replacement for displacement", the aftermarket companies then overbore the same castings that produce a mediocre standard size cylinder to produce the same cylinder with the same port timing and measurement errors, just a little bigger.
The company has no additional molding or R&D to do and now has two offerings for the marketplace including the "Big Bore" which of course sounds impressive. this helps them offset the considerable cost of making a new casting.

Most builders/porters/modders who build saws for a living or for pay are unwilling to chance working with a subpar cylinder when the cost difference isn't really that great in relation to the overall cost of a pro saw and porting work.
Plating is an issue for builders including overplating, uneven plating, plating flash in ports and intake/exhaust. Overall molding and finishing may also leave a lot more for the builder to do himself and the customer doesn't see or pay for the extra work.
Since quality control and overall uniformity is better on the OEM cylinder and it has years of research and science behind it most guys feel more comfortable starting the journey to a ported saw from a known origin.

An aftermarket big bore cylinder can be made to run like a beast, but builders are less likely to undertake this as it isn't a repeatable process. If Builder Bob ports an MS660 OEM and takes notes his next OEM 660 build goes faster and maybe better. With an aftermarket he is starting from scratch each time and can't just use the same numbers and process every time a saw arrives with a check.

Big Bore cylinders sell well, even when I tell a potential customer they are better off with OEM or a strong AM with rigid QC like Meteor, more than half the time they buy the cheaper big bore kit.

If you go with any aftermarket kit make sure you use Caber or OEM rings in the right size for your piston, cheap rings kill power, PERIOD.

A big bore kit does reportedly do better than even an OEM cylinder in a big bar, big wood, stumping situation and reportedly in some milling use. A couple of builders say they like the big bore for those uses in pro tree service / milling applications with strong oil mix as the displacement and additional size of the piston give more uniform power and cooling.
Locally the 660BB I built for a tree service that uses it for smaller stumping got a "meh, about the same as the oem 660" reaction.
Dave

also worth noting (as shown by weimedogs excellent vids) that some castings aren't off by merely thousandths of an inch but by more than a 1/4 inch and are freeporting calamities

If a builder took the time to correct all the problems and built a strong saw, most customers wouldn't want to pay the same price for that saw as all OEM. So your customer base turns into bargain shoppers, who statistically are a bigger pain in the butt to deal with.
Definitely lose/lose for the builder I would think.

 

[Mattyo]

Ok, that kafar kit saw that woke up a bit w/ the muff mod... has a golf piston in it. personally, I wouldn't use that kit for the fact that the uk kit is more complete at less money iirc....and I think the casting is slightly better on the uk kit. For my intents and purposes, I don't care how bad the casting is as long as the plating sticks.... I'm gonna grind on these things anyway. My orignal question was do they all perform the same w/ the some mods... is there some voodoo difference between aftermarket kits vs oem if they are modded in the same way. I think the question would be better answered with 2 saws instead of my original 5. probably with the best and the worst.... oem and kafar kit ....grind the hell out of them and put the on the dyno...and see how far off the am kit is from oem.

this was the question, as opposed to .... how to get as much power as you can out of a 350 / 346xp

as inconsistent as the two hyway cylinders are, they were bought from 2 different vendors over a 2 year period I think. @Gentleman might be able to answer the question of how consistent he believes these hyway cylinders to be in the future.

 

[paragonbuilder]

You certainly showed that a aftermarket cylinder can be made to run with an oem cylinder Matt!


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[Mattyo]

Lets look at another important graph.....

Stock in pink, vs my best (so far) in green vs a pro's best (or at least something that's really good from a pro porter) in blue

overall, if a pro can get an extra 40-50% out of a saw, and I can get 30% .....I'm very happy with that.

 

[paragonbuilder]

Matt that's excellent! Shows you can get great gains without machine work!
Where does the muffler mod saw fit in there?


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[Mattyo]

funny you should ask....

doing 4 plots is easier to see than 7 at a time

 

[paragonbuilder]

So maybe when we did the Ny challenge we weren't loading the saws enough to let the stronger ones shine Matt?


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[paragonbuilder]

Looks to me like you essentially doubled the gains according to the graph!


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[Chainganger]

Lets look at another important graph.....

Stock in pink, vs my best (so far) in green vs a pro's best (or at least something that's really good from a pro porter) in blue

overall, if a pro can get an extra 40-50% out of a saw, and I can get 30% .....I'm very happy with that.

View attachment 21930

To be consistent though, is the pink stock saw a stock 44 mm 350? If you want to know your gains, should it not be compared to say a 350 with a new OEM 346xp slapped on with a gasket, no muff mod? Or to a 45 mm hyway slapped on with a gasket and no muff mod?

And what about carbs? Were they all the same? I just did an OEM conversion and put on a Zama el42 and it sure seemed to make a difference, but I have not done timed cuts and have no dyno!

Mastermind made a post on how to even modify the Zama el42 and I might try that on my next one, I have another 350 dismanteled and cleaned up but need to decide on a P&C first.

 

[malk315]

Matt this is great work. I think you are now having fun with it and that is what's key. I think the charts say what you were hoping for and that should bring some closure from the big questions raised from NY up til now.

Hopefully dyno 2.0 will make this even easier and clearer.

Well done. That chart tool is sweet. Need to remember it... Awesome

Edit: damn autuocorrect

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