Dogging in vs self feeding - Tooth length too! The truth of it.

[Squish9]

So you know nothing of left and right cutter set?
More advanced filing you learn about "set" it's a key step if the goal is an efficient chain all working as one.
Have you ever wondered why they stone race chains? They sure as hell don't have cutters all different lengths they understand set.
I'm talking more advanced sharpening a clapped dirt cutting firewood chain ya right who cares.

Some people are fine with never mastering sharpening or fully understanding saw chain close enough is good enough and that's fine by me I'm not using their chains lol

I have been thinking of making a video explaining what you're actually doing when filing chain. I think it's lost on most people that you are jointing (even height), setting (left and right equal) and sharpening in the one process.

The simplicity of saw chains design and sharpening process means people don't see what's actually happening. I bet if we had to spin it around by hand people would focus on this more. After suffering through the using a crosscut saw, I appreciate that getting everything right makes the job much easier

We get to throw bulk HP at the problem on a saw so it doesn't feel as important

 

[rogue60]

I have been thinking of making a video explaining what you're actually doing when filing chain. I think it's lost on most people that you are jointing (even height), setting (left and right equal) and sharpening in the one process.

The simplicity of saw chains design and sharpening process means people don't see what's actually happening. I bet if we had to spin it around by hand people would focus on this more. After suffering through the using a crosscut saw, I appreciate that getting everything right makes the job much easier

We get to throw bulk HP at the problem on a saw so it doesn't feel as important

I think the softer the timber the more forgiving you can get away with lacklustre half arsed chains problem is they think that applies to the whole world lol
And yeah it's lost on most a short cutter has less set than a longer cutter which results in the longer cutter doing all the work cleaning up the narrower kerf left behind by the short cutter.

 

[HumBurner]

So you know nothing of left and right cutter set?
More advanced filing you learn about "set" it's a key step if the goal is an efficient chain all working as one.
Have you ever wondered why they stone race chains? They sure as hell don't have cutters all different lengths they understand set.
A blanket statement that uniform cutter length (same set all left and all right cutters) doesn't matter is just ignorance on the matter.
I'm talking more advanced sharpening a clapped dirt cutting firewood chain ya right who cares.

Some people are fine with never mastering sharpening or fully understanding saw chain close enough is good enough and that's fine by me I'm not using their chains lol

Thanks for the chuckle

 

[jeffkrib]

I have a dumb question for you mate, how do you set depth gauges?

I am trying to walk the fine line between it not cutting and chattering like a bastard

This is how I set my depth gauges. Grind the cutters sharp and all to the same length.
Then put my straight edge across 2 cutters.
I measure the gap between the straight edge and depth gauge with a feeler gauge.
Keeping note of how many file strokes it takes to get it to the correct depth (generally 0.65mm). Check a couple of cutter's then go ahead and do them all without measuring anymore.
Ref pic

I'm lead to believe this is one of the few proper ways to measure the depth gauges and works provided the cutters are all the same length.

 

[davidwyby]

Janka:

PNW

Doug fir 660 (fibrous, lot of drag on the back chain robs hp, square ground helps)
Madrone 1460
Alder 590
Big leaf maple 850


Central/east US

Rock maple 1450
Black locust 1700
Osage orange 2620
Pignut hickory 2140
Red oak 1220
White oak 1350
Bur oak 1360
Pin oak 1500
Swamp white oak 1600
Ash 1350
Wall nut 1010

Turkey oak 1200


Southwest US


Monterey pine 710 not hard of fibrous but very stringy. Very hard springy tough once sap desert dried.
Live oak 2680 tough when green, chain skating hard when desert dried.
Alligator juniper 1160 “softwood”
Desert ironwood 3260 (74lb/cu ft, doesn’t float)
Olive 2700
Mesquite 2340 tough when green, hard when dry
Borrowed from Oz : not so hard when green
River red gum euc 2160
Iron bark Euc 2600-3600
Blue gum 2680



Oz:
Buloke 5060 !!!
Yellow box 2930
Gray box 3310

 

[Wilhelm]

I always considered Turkey Oak to be hard, although looking up its Janka rating it really is not.
Weird!

 

[rogue60]

Thanks for the chuckle

That's okay we'll just pretend SET doesn't exist with saw chain so no feelings are hurt.

 

[rogue60]

Man I'd love to see the guy's that say set doesn't matter with saw chain sharpen a hand saw with set all over the place and then use it in some hardwood! you'd throw it down paddock it'd be absolutely useless lol
Buggered if I know why some aim so low when there is more on the table for free!

 

[HumBurner]

Man I'd love to see the guy's that say set doesn't matter with saw chain sharpen a hand saw with set all over the place and then use it in some hardwood! you'd throw it down paddock it'd be absolutely useless lol
Buggered if I know why some aim so low when there is more on the table for free!

Ya know, I've been told my whole life, from early childhood onward, that I do things wrong or backwards. From putting on a belt, to tying my shoes, how I talk, how I walk, to how I drive, garden, and think.....I am and my ways are wrong.

Going on 38 years of living and 12 years behind a saw, 20 years of gardening, I'm still here and kicking.



Here's a brief story.

It's around 1940, 1942. My grandmother is a young girl of 7 other siblings. Her dad farms for a living. Their neighbor comes by one day, "Joe, it's the most amazing thing! You'll never have to spend time in your fields dealing with pests again. Here, try this (hands him a can of DDT.)

My great-grandfather refuses. He's ridiculed by his friends and peers for being a sucker, working too hard when there's this new thing that does the work for you.

Three years go by, and ole Joe is still out there eliminating caterpillars and eggs and using the things that have always worked to deter pests.

The neighbor comes by to tell him his 16 year old daughter is incredibly ill. She dies months later. Couple years go by, the neighbor and his wife both get real sick. Year goes by and they're both dead. Cancer, directly from DDT exposure/consumption.




Maybe you'll glean something from this post. Maybe you won't. Maybe you'll realize 100% is rarely attained and that 98% is good enough most of the time. Maybe you're as "ignorant" as I am....??

 

[davidwyby]

I always considered Turkey Oak to be hard, although looking up its Janka rating it really is not.
Weird!

There is hardness and then there is toughness….which isn’t on a chart.

Euc is really hard when dry but not very tough. Mesquite is tough. Live oak is tough. Doug fir is not hard but it is tough.

 

[davidwyby]

@HumBurner @rogue60

I hate to see two guys I like and respect get in a fight instead of an argument or explanation.

 

[Stihl036]

That's okay we'll just pretend SET doesn't exist with saw chain so no feelings are hurt.



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Tell us more!

I've heard (in the early 1990's) the side of the depth gauge determines set so a little off of the side is needed as the tooth becomes shorter because the side of the depth gauge prevents the tooth from taking a wider kerf.

Is this where you're heading?

How do you determine this parameter?

Is this parameter progressive?

Optimized for the type of wood being cut?

Inquiring mind(s) want to know.

 

[redneckhillbilly]

as a firewood getter I have never heard of set on a sawchain, I am very interested in learning about this as well.

 

[Philbert]

If you step back a little, sharpening a saw chain has much in common with sharpening any other saw (circular, hand, bandsaw, hacksaw, etc.).

* There are, of course exceptions, and some differences for the tool, material, etc. *

Saw teeth must be at a uniform height, follow a uniform curve, or align along the circumference of a circle to cut efficiently. This is called ‘jointing’ (this reminds me of using a wood jointer to even out the edge of a board).

It must also be remembered that saws cut a ‘kerf’ (slot), unlike a knife, which separates / divides materials with a simple slit.

The kerf is required to allow clearance for the blade body, guide bar, etc., and was traditionally formed by bending or tapping teeth outward to the right and left sides.

This is called ‘setting’.



On chainsaws, carbide blades, and other saws with formed cutters / teeth, the set is designed into the shape of each tooth.

Then:

Each cutting edge has to be sharpened.

Depth gauges (if present) have to be adjusted.

Chip clearance has to be considered.

The ‘genius’ of modern saw chain is that, by keeping cutters the same length, it is possible to: joint, set, and sharpen both cutting edges (cutting and clearing) with one pass of a round file!

One needs only to read about sharpening an ‘old style’ crosscut saw to appreciate this advantage!

Philbert

 

[Wilhelm]

There is hardness and then there is toughness….which isn’t on a chart.

Euc is really hard when dry but not very tough. Mesquite is tough. Live oak is tough. Doug fir is not hard but it is tough.

The knots of Turkey Oak are HARD, a perfectly self feeding chain nearly stops dead hitting them.

The wood species is really dense and heavy.

 

[rogue60]

Just to be clear nobody is saying different length cutters and progressive raker gauges don’t cut but can this be improved upon absolutely if one is armed with the knowledge of how saw chain is by design.
You often here my ground chains are superior to my filed chains this is mostly because a grinder evens everything up keeps the cutters equal lengths the set is the same for the left and right side cutters and amazingly this is how chain is designed to be sharpened would you believe..
One benefit of the above is all cutters are doing the same amount of work makes for a very efficient chain.

 

[davidwyby]

Just to be clear nobody is saying different length cutters and progressive raker gauges don’t cut but can this be improved upon absolutely if one is armed with the knowledge of how saw chain is by design.
You often here my ground chains are superior to my filed chains this is mostly because a grinder evens everything up keeps the cutters equal lengths the set is the same for the left and right side cutters and amazingly this is how chain is designed to be sharpened would you believe..

That Oz wood will tell you for sure!

I have gone to cut with guys cutting softwood, saw their chains and thought they wouldn’t cut worth a hoot, but the cut fine.

Biggest thing I see with set would be for guys milling and keeping a smooth edge. I try to for my cookies I sell

 

[Stihl036]

So the kerf gets narrower as the tooth decreases in length.

Does the kerf ever get so narrow that the rivets start rubbing on the sides of the kerf? ...and friction on the sides of the bar increases?

My understanding is that just a little filing on the outside of the depth gauge aids in keeping the kerf width wider and reduces side frictions.

Am I repeating an old wives' tale?

 

[rogue60]

So the kerf gets narrower as the tooth decreases in length.

Does the kerf ever get so narrow that the rivets start rubbing on the sides of the kerf? ...and friction on the sides of the bar increases?

My understanding is that just a little filing on the outside of the depth gauge aids in keeping the kerf width wider and reduces side frictions.

Am I repeating an old wives' tale?

Yes that is correct the kerf gets narrower as the cutters are sharpened and length is reduced.
We have all run a saw and a few sharpens in as the kerf is reduced and the chain hits that sweet spot the perfect load to power ratio.
I don't believe the kerf gets that narrow at the end of the chains life the rivets and bar start binding well at least I've never experienced it personally.
If the cutter in front has done it's job and has the same set as the one behind it the side of the rakers shouldn't be rubbing against the kerf? I see no benefit in trying to make a cutter cut further sideways the cutter would have to tilt to achieve this would wear out the bar groove in no time I'd imagine? But I could be wrong never messed with filing the sides of rakers myself.

 

[Philbert]

Race chain makers have all kinds of ‘secret sauce’ type things they do make their chains special.

But for us mortals, I believe that a chain loop with its cutters worn back behind the witness mark will still carve a kerf wide enough for the chain and bar to pass through.

However, if someone mounts a narrow kerf chain on a standard kerf bar, they might have some issues.

Narrow kerf bars have thinner rails, even if the gauge / groove thickness is the same.



Philbert