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Dogging in vs self feeding - Tooth length too! The truth of it.

Vintage Engine Repairs

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A lesson learn’t - I hope it helps anyone coming here in the future wanting to learn..

I was always under the impression, from watching Americans cutting, that my chains were blunt or I was doing something wrong. There is this idea that you don’t need to use to ur bucking spikes when the saw is sharp. I see you guys in America and Canada lay the bar on the log, pull the trigger and the saw draws itself in, loads up and bites instantly. I would try that out here, the chain skates either side and skips and bounces… Self feeding in Aussi hard wood really isn’t a thing. Without bucking spikes you’re not cutting well at all. The chain skates and skips over the log and the saw just screams, it’s not until you dog in and lean that you’ll start to get a cut. For the benefit of anyone who may come to this forum and thinks that they’re doing something wrong and that using the dogs is a sign of a dull chain, consider what wood you’re cutting.

Also, I see you guys get half way through a cut, stop pulling the trigger and then can pull the trigger again and it tears through the wood. I tried that and it bogs the saw and won’t cut. Again I thought my saw was under powered and honestly, even with a 25” bar on a 660 I want more…

So much that I thought my saw had low compression so checked it, it’s fine. The wood out here is just different.

IMG_5312.jpeg

For anyone wanting to learn that lives in Australia, what i’ve learnt is, almost anything and everything you see and hear about saws and cutting in America and Canada simply doesn’t apply. From bar length, tooth geometry, falling timber, sharpening and so much more.. always ask and learn from those people who cut the species you are.

Also Tooth length, I was adamant, having learnt off YouTubers from America, teeth can be different lengths and cut just as fast or quick, just as efficiently and just as smooth! After all they show it can! We’ll finally after hearing from rogue and trains and initially being defiant, I have realised. Yes they’re right, they know what they’re talking about. Keep every tooth as close to exactly as the others every time as much as possible. It’s smoother, less chatter, cleaner cutting, quicker cutting.

This has been an interesting process involving a lot of apologising to the two guys below when I would challenge them with what I had seen online and how it was indeed wrong advise out here in Australia.

A shoutout and thank you to both @rogue60 for this advice and much more over the years, as well as @Trains, who is always generous and willing to help too. Two great blokes worth reaching out to if you’re in Australia, who have put up with my crap and continued to help me out and guide me. Thanks guys.

Here is a full chisel, fresh ground chain, low aggressive depth gauges and it hardly cuts until I lean on it.


Also, here is a comparison for fun between the 500i and the 660. Not fair by any stretch, but just interesting to see how they run in Aussi hard wood.

 

legdelimber

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A few hammer taps (something around 16~24 "Yank" ounces) on the end of the log would be interesting to hear.
I can see that this log looks pretty dry.
But I've often noticed you guys wood looks like cutting an old dry American utility pole.
Often even the chips/dust seem to come off like it even. Regardless of the chain!
Quite often looks to be some tough cutting wood in you guys vids.

p.s. What sort of cut and chips does noodling /lengthwise cut give?

p.p.s. I've got a small question for the Raceing Chain guys, if they see this. I'll wait to see if anyone address it.
 
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ferris

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A lesson learn’t - I hope it helps anyone coming here in the future wanting to learn..

I was always under the impression, from watching Americans cutting, that my chains were blunt or I was doing something wrong. There is this idea that you don’t need to use to ur bucking spikes when the saw is sharp. I see you guys in America and Canada lay the bar on the log, pull the trigger and the saw draws itself in, loads up and bites instantly. I would try that out here, the chain skates either side and skips and bounces… Self feeding in Aussi hard wood really isn’t a thing. Without bucking spikes you’re not cutting well at all. The chain skates and skips over the log and the saw just screams, it’s not until you dog in and lean that you’ll start to get a cut. For the benefit of anyone who may come to this forum and thinks that they’re doing something wrong and that using the dogs is a sign of a dull chain, consider what wood you’re cutting.

Also, I see you guys get half way through a cut, stop pulling the trigger and then can pull the trigger again and it tears through the wood. I tried that and it bogs the saw and won’t cut. Again I thought my saw was under powered and honestly, even with a 25” bar on a 660 I want more…

So much that I thought my saw had low compression so checked it, it’s fine. The wood out here is just different.

View attachment 408097

For anyone wanting to learn that lives in Australia, what i’ve learnt is, almost anything and everything you see and hear about saws and cutting in America and Canada simply doesn’t apply. From bar length, tooth geometry, falling timber, sharpening and so much more.. always ask and learn from those people who cut the species you are.

Also Tooth length, I was adamant, having learnt off YouTubers from America, teeth can be different lengths and cut just as fast or quick, just as efficiently and just as smooth! After all they show it can! We’ll finally after hearing from rogue and trains and initially being defiant, I have realised. Yes they’re right, they know what they’re talking about. Keep every tooth as close to exactly as the others every time as much as possible. It’s smoother, less chatter, cleaner cutting, quicker cutting.

This has been an interesting process involving a lot of apologising to the two guys below when I would challenge them with what I had seen online and how it was indeed wrong advise out here in Australia.

A shoutout and thank you to both @rogue60 for this advice and much more over the years, as well as @Trains, who is always generous and willing to help too. Two great blokes worth reaching out to if you’re in Australia, who have put up with my crap and continued to help me out and guide me. Thanks guys.

Here is a full chisel, fresh ground chain, low aggressive depth gauges and it hardly cuts until I lean on it.


Also, here is a comparison for fun between the 500i and the 660. Not fair by any stretch, but just interesting to see how they run in Aussi hard wood.

Which saw would u use for cutting this stuff?
 

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Which saw would u use for cutting this stuff?
The ms660 with 25” bar, but really that isn’t even that impressive. I can’t really lean on the saw too much still, there is not much spare power there. I want to try an 088 / 880 / 881 with 25” bar and see how it goes, Rogue has an 090 and seeing how fast that thing cuts is where it’s at lol. I only mess around for 3-5 hours each time at the wood lot so not enough to be concerned with the weight of any of these saws. It’s not like I have to lug them through the forest and back :p

Of course, it would also cut faster if I wasn’t a hack with sharpening too. I try my best but don’t have the experience or knowledge to really do the chain justice.
 

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A few hammer taps (something around 16~24 "Yank" ounces) on the end of the log would be interesting to hear.
I can see that this log looks pretty dry.
But I've often noticed you guys wood looks like cutting an old dry American utility pole.
Often even the chips/dust seem to come off like it even. Regardless of the chain!
Quite often looks to be some tough cutting wood in you guys vids.

p.s. What sort of cut and chips does noodling /lengthwise cut give?

p.p.s. I've got a small question for the Raceing Chain guys, if they see this. I'll wait to see if anyone address it.
I can smack the end grain of a log with the poll of an axe next time?

Edit: re the noodling, it seems to depend how dry it is. If it’s dry, you still get dust. Green sometimes you get chips, but I haven’t ever gotten noodles. I’m sure someone with more experience out here can chime in though, their mileage may vary.
 

pro94lt

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You can say the same for anything you hear in the states, the PNW trees vs trees in the east are completely different and alot of the things that are the gold standard out west don't apply to the east...
 

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I am sitting over here chuckling to myself! Your experience is exactly that of mine, with thanks to those gents as well! Funny thing is I am in the states, but they imported a bunch of Aus here. 😆

In a nutshell, the dry hard Euc narrows the window for what will and won’t work, or work well. I recently got challenged by an Italian Stallion on my sharpening group on fb and so went and did some back to back testing. As I predicted, my “blunt angle flat face grind/file”
made several cuts, and a std round filed dulled in one. To be fair the wood I have has been down 20 years and varies a lot with hardness and dirtiness, and this was an exceptionally hard one. I need to put all those vids together and post on YT.


Everything must be kept even/consistent to cut smoothly. .404 is better…stihl chain is better. Flat filing the face of the cutter supports the edge better. Gullets don’t $&@&$ matter. Setting the dogs smooths things out.


IMG_5331.jpeg

I have a theory that stihl offset grind keeping the working corner more supported helps too but haven’t tested.


Here is some Euc action with hammer hits.



My favorite recipe, but I don’t have a square grinder….



Moisture content is big…green Euc is no prob. Dry mesquite is like dry Euc, maybe harder? Green mesquite is fibrous and chokes chains. I have cut dead moist pines in the mountains with chains all wonky and even somewhat dull and it’s fine.
 

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Oh, self feed…yeah, long bars make that real hard…don’t bury the tip. Long dogs help with the leverage but you can’t use the first lowest dog, it will stall. Hold the saw back by hand until you get to the second dog. I got WCS 3 point dogs on my 461 in testing. The middle dog being directly in line with the chain helps I think so that it doesn’t pull the chain down into the wood and stall it.

Re: stopping/starting, I don’t have too much trouble with that in dry Euc, more in greener tougher woods like oak, mesquite, and the worst, Aleppo pine which is soft but very tough. A hooky chain that cuts it fast will lock into it hard if one lets off in the wood.
 
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davidwyby

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Sorry, more stuff keeps popping into my head…I think it might be the climate as much or more than the wood species. I’m sure western madrone would get super hard if dried in a desert. Aleppo gets pretty hard when dried, for pine. That hard springiness like a toothpick. My one pondo log doesn’t seem to have gotten hard, just dusty, and palo verde doesn’t either. Interesting that palo verde and ironwood grow side by side and the ironwood turns to concrete and the palo to dust.
 

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I’ve found it’s best to have the log parallel to the breeze. I’ll go to the trouble to pick up/move the log with the forklift. We really should be wearing dust masks.

The wood cracks and gets dust blown in. Pressure washing washes lots of dirt out…soaking the log pretty well keeps the dust down too.
 

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Good thread thanks to all.
An additional comment topic...People discuss bar oil like all trees cut the same, When the sap is running Cottonwood will have sap running out the end of a log all day on a big 36"//48" and bigger, for a full day and still dripping the next day, The sap is basically water but there is so much of it and the chips are like soft scrubbing sponges with plenty of water to flush the cut that you need to pull out of the cut once in a while to let the bar oil. You might notice it in Black Walnut but not as severe. When cutting on a circle mill the cottonwood is soft, tough, and fibrous so the blade has to be sharp with proud corners (Swaged unless you are running carbides) but Burr Oak and Black Walnut etc. cut chips more like a chisel. Nice and clean.
On a circle mill When a wet cotton wood is Half frozen it cuts a whole lot different than a half thawed Log. A completely frozen log will take its' toll on the tooth edge and will cut slower yet OK.
You cut a cottonwood log in the yard in cold frozen condition you notice it but seldom have much sap left in it. One time I Had some CW logs covered by sawdust in the early summer late spring by the Blower from the head saw, and by the next spring they were blued (Spoiled for grade but ok for pallet) some were half thawed and it took the edge off the saw chain like it was a green frozen locust log.
 
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Back to your thread title.

‘Self-feeding’ is fun, provided that the saw can be controlled. My perspective is that this requires a bit more ‘hook’ in the cutter profile, meaning that the top plate is engaging earlier than the side plate, pulling the chain into the wood.

Ideally (?) both sharp edges should be working together, so that the chain ‘effortlessly’ cuts through the wood?

‘Dogging in’ with spikes as a pivot point for bar placement and control is one thing. Too many guys use it as a leverage fulcrum to force a dull chain through, causing overheating and ofher problems.

Philbert
 

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@Philbert both edges working together is why I think square cuts well. On round the chip has to be pried/wedged up by the top plate before it can be severed by the side plate. I think when increasing hook, one should also increase top plate angle which is actually side cutter angle. Stihl offset wheel angles tend to keep the side plate further ahead.

Then again you have Xcut where the side plate is quite a way behind the top plate but it cuts fast.
 

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While I’m here, this is 8 tanks at 40:1 Amsoil Saber. I know it’s only early days, but interesting none the less. I’ll keep updating it every so often to see, though I’m going to drop to 32:1 next time. At 100 tanks I’ll take the jug off and see what it looks like.


IMG_5354.jpegIMG_5352.jpegIMG_5355.jpegIMG_5362.jpeg
 

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I’m in the camp of matching my chain to wood type. I wish I could run square but it would be dull way too quick for the type wood I cut. I would like to think there is video of a self feeding chain somewhere in wood just as petrified as that stuff you got down under, but maybe not. The moisture content of that log looks the be in the negative 😄
 

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I am sitting over here chuckling to myself! Your experience is exactly that of mine, with thanks to those gents as well! Funny thing is I am in the states, but they imported a bunch of Aus here. 😆

In a nutshell, the dry hard Euc narrows the window for what will and won’t work, or work well. I recently got challenged by an Italian Stallion on my sharpening group on fb and so went and did some back to back testing. As I predicted, my “blunt angle flat face grind/file”
made several cuts, and a std round filed dulled in one. To be fair the wood I have has been down 20 years and varies a lot with hardness and dirtiness, and this was an exceptionally hard one. I need to put all those vids together and post on YT.


Everything must be kept even/consistent to cut smoothly. .404 is better…stihl chain is better. Flat filing the face of the cutter supports the edge better. Gullets don’t $&@&$ matter. Setting the dogs smooths things out.


View attachment 408143

I have a theory that stihl offset grind keeping the working corner more supported helps too but haven’t tested.


Here is some Euc action with hammer hits.



My favorite recipe, but I don’t have a square grinder….



Moisture content is big…green Euc is no prob. Dry mesquite is like dry Euc, maybe harder? Green mesquite is fibrous and chokes chains. I have cut dead moist pines in the mountains with chains all wonky and even somewhat dull and it’s fine.
I think concrete saw makes less dust, Lol
 
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