PAST CT GTG 2016 May 7th

[malk315]

Was just looking at my dyno results and I'm stoked!!! The 460 Al ported for me gave me 7 data points from 9,700 to 11,000 with a low of 7.952 Hp and a high of 8.383 Hp, and the Randy saw is right next to it!!!!

Even my unported 044 and MS440 produced unexpectedly high #s.

There were no disappointments, just some did better than others. I'm gonna have to enter ranges of #s for each saw into a spreadsheet and compute some averages.

More later, I'm stoked!

Is 7 data points a fair enough # to use to compute something like that? Seems to be in the RPM range to check.

Unfortunately, don't know any way to do it other than write the #s down and enter them.

I hear they did a couple of bone stock saws to establish a base line. Can they be posted, or are they on the dyno site? I'll look, my mind is goin 150 MPH right now!

I think everyone is going to be talking about HD-2 filters and dp muffler covers (Ha Ha Ha).

Mike here's the bone stock MS460 of Dan (paragonbuilder's) that we did to see if it was close to rated specs. I had meant to post this one anyway since it's a plain stock saw and shows they numbers are quite reasonable. If I remember right Stihl's site says 6HP at 9500 or 9000 RPM. This has a good band from 5 to 6HP from 11500 down through 8000 easily.

 

[MustangMike]

Calm down Mike, take deep breaths [emoji1]

044 #1 I'm the original owner, a 10 mm 044 with original piston & rings. Mods = HD-2, DP Muff Cover, Timing Advance, Base Gasket Delete

From Dyno Run #116, 7 continuous data points:

RPM HP
7,500 7.663
8,250 7.316
9,250 7.893
10,250 8.746
11,000 7.872
11,750 7.17
12250 7.475

Average Hp from 7,500 to 12,250 7.73!!!!!

 

[MustangMike]

That was of course the best of the 3 tests for the 044. If I take the middle one (likely more realistic) there are 11 data points in a row from 6.09 to 8.05 that average 6.93 Hp. I would take that # any day of the week!

 

[MustangMike]

If you guys do 3 runs on a saw, are you using the best #s, the worst #s, or the middle???

 

[wcorey]

Sorry I haven't been joining in the conversation much, little time and less sleep...

Eric, you can disseminate my saws/runs wherever/however you see fit.
I don't foresee any of the past bullchit repeating itself here, seems a much tighter and informed group, but eventually the data (or misinterpretation of it) will get spread around elsewhere. Things will be taken out of context by those not bothering to read complete threads/posts... Blah blah, etc, etc...
I don't care, let 'em wallow in ignorance if they want, I don't plan on giving it much notice...

Interesting stuff this latest mass of data but so all over the place it's hard to draw anything but very general conclusions from. The usual 'raises more questions than gives answers' sort of thing.
Still a lot of work to be done to smooth things out, gain some finer definition and consistency, mostly on my end I suspect.

Never did get a chance to switch it over to some different brake rotors, that could be a big improvement. Then a larger master cylinder to reduce the braking sensitivity, may have to make one from scratch, I've got some 17mm seals around somewhere.
We'll get it sorted one way or another, not quite ready to dump the brake setup though.
Endless number of backup plans, just a matter of time to fit it all in...

I'm hoping to see many parallel projects started once the software and electronics become 'available', that would surely speed up the hardware development.

 

[wcorey]

If you guys do 3 runs on a saw, are you using the best #s, the worst #s, or the middle???

Mike, I guess that depends on what purposes 'we're' using it for, benevolent or malevolent, lol.
I can't say that anyone has a real idea of where we're at with a good bit of this data, this is still relatively uncharted (charted) territory.
It was difficult to be consistent on the brake lever and the results you're seeing reflect that. I could get a 10hp spike on a 50cc saw with a moderate grab of the lever, inertia will do that, briefly.
Some saws were easy to get repeatable and relatively smooth data output, others were up/down/all around... consistently, lol...

The individual graphs can be more or less averaged by drawing a consistent linear curve through the points and obvious spikes should be/could be ignored.
I'd guess just use common sense looking at a group of runs, which one looks the most even, do they get better sequentially, maybe the saw was warming up...
Average the individual runs, then average the group...
I dunno, take the one that makes you happiest and run with it...

The load cell data is collected every 100ms, then the software takes groups of those points (30?) and averages them to give you the points you see on the graph. So on a 4 second run the saw may hit some peak for 2 10th's of a second... I couldn't tell you what that gets you in the wood...

 

[drf256]

I just got back from Doc Al's .
I can't believe how much stuff he had with him on the return trip.

@mels decided to gift my son some saws. I didn't even want to ask Doc if he would have room to bring any of them back, knowing that he was packed already and could only bring 2 of my 90cc saws up there.

I stopped by @drf255 late tonight to pick up my two saws, there he was, still in dress clothes, grabbing what seemed like a dozen saws, after I loaded the big two. I'm thinking that I've got just enough room and he calls out "wait ....... here's two more"
This guy didn't even have time to change clothes, he just got in and is getting a ton of dirty, oily, smelly saws together for me.

Mel and Doc, from the bottom of my heart, thank you both !!! You two Sirs have gone way out of your way to help me, and I appreciate the heck out of it !
Thank you gentlemen!!!

Thanks right back to you Kevin.

Kevin was more than gracious and not only gave me a bunch of parts for my lathe, but did a .404 chain in square file for my that's a razor. Thank you so much bud.

 

[Moparmyway]

Thanks right back to you Kevin.

Kevin was more than gracious and not only gave me a bunch of parts for my lathe, but did a .404 chain in square file for my that's a razor. Thank you so much bud.

Your very welcome Doc, it was my pleasure, and I really appreciate you making last night work ......... looking forward to hearing how that square filed chain compares to the chain on your 066.

Speaking of your lathe, when you get the time to check that threaded area on the carriage, let me know if its what we discussed, or if you encounter any obstacles with it.

 

[Brewz]

How good is this site!

When is an argument going to break out?

Nope!

Just good people helping each other out.

Love it!

 

[Moparmyway]

Just slightly over 185 now

 

[jmssaws]

Just slightly over 185 nowView attachment 21687

I have the same tester. Been a good one for a long time.

 

[Brewz]

Those tach's you guys all have on the saw handles.

Where is the best place to get them?

 

[mdavlee]

I have the same tester. Been a good one for a long time.

The schrader valves were here when I opened boxes this morning. I can actually test compression again.

 

[Moparmyway]

I have the same tester. Been a good one for a long time.

I like it too ...... Seems accurate enough

Those tach's you guys all have on the saw handles.

Where is the best place to get them?

Search flea bay or amazon for "Hardline tachs"

 

[mdavlee]

I like it too ...... Seems accurate enough


Search flea bay or amazon for "Hardline tachs"

That looks like my Oreilly tester. It reads the same as the Snap on.

 

[paragonbuilder]

I just got back from Doc Al's .
I can't believe how much stuff he had with him on the return trip.

@mels decided to gift my son some saws. I didn't even want to ask Doc if he would have room to bring any of them back, knowing that he was packed already and could only bring 2 of my 90cc saws up there.

I stopped by @drf255 late tonight to pick up my two saws, there he was, still in dress clothes, grabbing what seemed like a dozen saws, after I loaded the big two. I'm thinking that I've got just enough room and he calls out "wait ....... here's two more"
This guy didn't even have time to change clothes, he just got in and is getting a ton of dirty, oily, smelly saws together for me.

Mel and Doc, from the bottom of my heart, thank you both !!! You two Sirs have gone way out of your way to help me, and I appreciate the heck out of it !
Thank you gentlemen!!!

Pics of the doc in dress clothes?

 

[malk315]

Mike, I guess that depends on what purposes 'we're' using it for, benevolent or malevolent, lol.
I can't say that anyone has a real idea of where we're at with a good bit of this data, this is still relatively uncharted (charted) territory.
It was difficult to be consistent on the brake lever and the results you're seeing reflect that. I could get a 10hp spike on a 50cc saw with a moderate grab of the lever, inertia will do that, briefly.
Some saws were easy to get repeatable and relatively smooth data output, others were up/down/all around... consistently, lol...

The individual graphs can be more or less averaged by drawing a consistent linear curve through the points and obvious spikes should be/could be ignored.
I'd guess just use common sense looking at a group of runs, which one looks the most even, do they get better sequentially, maybe the saw was warming up...
Average the individual runs, then average the group...
I dunno, take the one that makes you happiest and run with it...

The load cell data is collected every 100ms, then the software takes groups of those points (30?) and averages them to give you the points you see on the graph. So on a 4 second run the saw may hit some peak for 2 10th's of a second... I couldn't tell you what that gets you in the wood...

Bill this is a great summary of how the data looks. Some graphs are super pretty, others not as much.
Each saw owner's data has been shared with saw owner and the guys who were close to the dyno build project on our long PM thread have access to the data for all saws we ran.

What helps to know things are likely right is that we can do several runs and get pretty darned consistent results across them all for a particular saw. A run only takes a few seconds and you can look at the data on the graph instantly after the run. We also can see (in the case of Al's experiments with tuning and filters) what tuning and filter changes do.

The load cell is read every 5 ms which is 200 Hz or 200 times per second. The decimation filter then takes 30 of these 5ms samples and uses 1/30th of each to comprise a load cell update taken as data -- so you get a cadence of 150ms load cell updates. If you look at the dyno thread I've shared a couple of graphs showing why we need to oversample greatly and use a signal processing style filter to get usable data.

The RPMs are collected every 100ms w/ a 2 update history to get enough pulses -- those are nice and clean pulses from 6 magnets on the shaft giving us 6 pulses per revolution. The shaft driven by the big sprocket only spins 1/5th of the saw's RPM, but I have the software show saw RPMs since it knows shaft and saw sprocket sizes. With the number of pulses and sampling rate we get RPMs to the resolution of 50 RPMs on the shaft and as you've seen on graphs and in videos of the live LED displays it is a resolution of 250 RPMs in saw RPMs.

One thing we forgot to double check -- if any of the saws had 8 pin instead of 7 pin sprockets. We had the saw sprocket parameter set for 7 pin for each of the runs and obviously that will make a difference in the math!

 

[MustangMike]

I keep reviewing the dyno info in my mind, and agree with Bill's assessment that some saws tested more accurately & consistently than others. I know with car dyno's they always take the best run, but that may be a little misleading here.

All three of my ported 460/046s tested at between 7.6 & 8 Hp, which I am very pleased with and believe is accurate based on how they perform.

But I have to discount the strong results on my 044#1. It is a very strong running saw, but not as strong as some of the #s indicate, and the 3 tests varied quite a bit. It will not cut with any of my ported 460s. I said going in to this that it and my MS440 felt pretty close to the same. That saw tested at about 6.6 Hp, which I believe is a reasonable # to apply to both saws.

I still want to see the test results on a 262, those darn things were beasts for their size!

And imagine if Deet's saw had showed up while we were all still there??? Everyone on this site is so great with their contributions of knowledge and resources. It is just so good to see.

 

[MustangMike]

All of my saws have 7 pin. That is quite an elaborate process you have developed to collect the data. You guys really did a fantastic job!

 

[jmssaws]

Mine probably had a 8pin on it.
Dan might know