Another welder

[lehman live edge slab]

Uncle has a Sears craftsman gas drive from 40’s or 50’s. Has push plugs to change amperage and a 16 hp onan on it that you wrap rope around to start no rewind

 

[Al Smith]

Those little 16-18 HP Onan machines actually did real well .In later years just nearly everyone who sold welders had some variation of them as they were sold under a number of brand names .Neat thing was in the later versions they had a single phase 120-240 volt 60 cycle generator where when welding the engine was set a 3600 rpm but for generator usage ran at 1800 and around 5-6 kva if i have my numbers correct fuel usage was around 5 or 6 pints per hour on generator service .Not bad considering the HP .I might additionally add the one unit I was familiar with also had the option of running as DC or AC welder $1400 in around 1980 under the Miller brand name .

 

[Bill G]

A few welder-generators

 

[el33t]

Got the PF. I doubt I'll ever run this at 200. 120 was intense. More heat than I have ever seen or witnessed. If I do it will be to satisfy a curiosity.

Since this welder is about 25 years old, I would check if the power factor correction capacitors are still OK.

 

[Al Smith]

When you say "power factor capacitors' are you refering to a pi filter which is used to smooth out the ripple voltage on the out put ?

 

[el33t]

When you say "power factor capacitors' are you refering to a pi filter which is used to smooth out the ripple voltage on the out put ?View attachment 461053

No, those are capacitors placed in parallel on the primary side of the transformer. They allow to reduce the total current flowing in the supply line, which allows to reduce the required gauge of the supply wires and the size of the overcurrent protection.
Of course, the correction is also welcomed by the power company, because it reduces useless current that only heats up the wires and transformers.

 

[OnlyStihl]

Since this welder is about 25 years old, I would check if the power factor correction capacitors are still OK.

How do I do that?

 

[lehman live edge slab]

A few welder-generators


View attachment 461043

A few welder-generators


View attachment 461043

Lots of fords and dodges with a few gm trucks. Lots of oldish trucks too

 

[Bill G]

Lots of fords and dodges with a few gm trucks. Lots of oldish trucks too

We have a large vocational program here in the East Moline Illinois school district. The (25) rural school districts around the area can send Junior and Senior students there for 1/2 of the day for a wide array of vocational programs. Since this is the world headquarters for Deere they have their own welding and machine program as part of the system. They monitor students and choose a select few to offer jobs upon graduation.

My youngest son completed the Deere program and started welding for Deere a couple weeks out of high school. It was feast or famine with mega overtime followed by periods of layoff. He is even more bullheaded than I am and was pissed about the uncertainty. When he was 20 he was laid off again and the union set him up with a oil pipeline job in North Dakota. One of my other sons had a Miller welder-generator so they put that in the bed of his truck and he headed to North Dakota. I wished him well but I knew it would not be what he was expecting. You do not start out welding you have to be a grinder beech and earn respect. Deere ended up calling him back to work so he came back. Of course then Deere laid him off again and he jumped in a semi.

A man has to eat.

 

[Al Smith]

No, those are capacitors placed in parallel on the primary side of the transformer. They allow to reduce the total current flowing in the supply line, which allows to reduce the required gauge of the supply wires and the size of the overcurrent protection.
Of course, the correction is also welcomed by the power company, because it reduces useless current that only heats up the wires and transformers.

View attachment 461063

I think what that deal is the caps are in parrallel with part of the primary winding of the transformer thus cancelling out the inductive reaction of the winding .So it appears it would provide power factor correction to a degree .Evidently then selection of H2 or H3 would change the value of basically the inductor ,the partial winding . I think it would also act as regulation device ,basially a filter similar to the pi configuration .

 

[Al Smith]

To add to the above after WW2 some people would convert a surplus generator from a bomber airplane ,24 volts 200 amps into a DC DIY welder .They had to couple it up using a speed increaser to around 6-7000 RPMs often using a twin cylinder Wisconsin engine or a V4 .Those things however need an inductor to stabelize the arc .Of which some used the primary winding of a transformer or made the inductor using solid heavy gauge wire wrapped around a piece of heavy steel shafting .Fact I have a P2 generator from a B-29 that 50 years ago I thought about making one but never did .Those P2's had a huge cooling fan that would nearly blow your ears out ,loud as a siren .--trivia ---

 

[el33t]

How do I do that?

I would check them by measuring capacitance using DMM. If I saw correctly in the photo they should be about 26 microfarads. I would check for voltage on them before measuring. Normally there should not be. Of course, this is all after disconnecting the power plug.

I think what that deal is the caps are in parrallel with part of the primary winding of the transformer thus cancelling out the inductive reaction of the winding .So it appears it would provide power factor correction to a degree .Evidently then selection of H2 or H3 would change the value of basically the inductor ,the partial winding . I think it would also act as regulation device ,basially a filter similar to the pi configuration .

Of course, capacitors change the reactance and thus the reactive power. That is their only role there. The welder can work just fine without these capacitors.

Because these types of welders have switchable primary windings to operate with different input voltages, and because the reactance seen by the power line varies greatly depending on the load on the secondary winding (welding current), the capacitors used must be a compromise.

For an input voltage of 230 V and a mains frequency of 60 Hz, the rated input current with capacitors is 68 A, without 86 A.
The power factor for a 200 A load with capacitors is 83.3 (%), without capacitors 69.

But the price for this correction is a much higher input current at idle of 6.2 A vs. 23 A. Of course, the home user does not pay for reactive power.

 

[OnlyStihl]

I would check them by measuring capacitance using DMM. If I saw correctly in the photo they should be about 26 microfarads. I would check for voltage on them before measuring. Normally there should not be. Of course, this is all after disconnecting the power plug.



Of course, capacitors change the reactance and thus the reactive power. That is their only role there. The welder can work just fine without these capacitors.

Because these types of welders have switchable primary windings to operate with different input voltages, and because the reactance seen by the power line varies greatly depending on the load on the secondary winding (welding current), the capacitors used must be a compromise.

For an input voltage of 230 V and a mains frequency of 60 Hz, the rated input current with capacitors is 68 A, without 86 A.
The power factor for a 200 A load with capacitors is 83.3 (%), without capacitors 69.

But the price for this correction is a much higher input current at idle of 6.2 A vs. 23 A. Of course, the home user does not pay for reactive power.

The new DMM/Amp clamp showing up soon, does not measure capacitance. I'm even more certain that my previous (real cheap) meter doesn't read capacitance either. I'll probably be able to notice the working or not based on the amps input at an output setting. But honestly, what really matters, is does it work or not. Other than popping a meter breaker once, this machine is a performer.

I see that the 90A breaker is showing up today. Whoohooo!!!

 

[lehman live edge slab]

Wasn’t trying to derail the whole thing just figured that something may be wrong with the welder if it’s tripping a 60 amp breaker at 125 amp setting especially how you describe the weld

 

[OnlyStihl]

Wasn’t trying to derail the whole thing just figured that something may be wrong with the welder if it’s tripping a 60 amp breaker at 125 amp setting especially how you describe the weld

I thought to correct you earlier, but held off. For the record the setting of the welder was not 125 when the meter breaker popped. I don't recall what it was set at, but under a 100 for sure. The following day I set it at 125 to "Stress" test the welder and to see if a breaker popped. It did not. The only other thing in the garage that might have contributed to the breaker popping was the deep freezer. The following day, I disconnected the freezer before stress testing the welder set at 125. That got me to point the finger at the breaker. And since I had already determined that the box and lines can handle a 90A breaker that is the initial direction I am taking.

 

[lehman live edge slab]

I thought to correct you earlier, but held off. For the record the setting of the welder was not 125 when the meter breaker popped. I don't recall what it was set at, but under a 100 for sure. The following day I set it at 125 to "Stress" test the welder and to see if a breaker popped. It did not. The only other thing in the garage that might have contributed to the breaker popping was the deep freezer. The following day, I disconnected the freezer before stress testing the welder set at 125. That got me to point the finger at the breaker. And since I had already determined that the box and lines can handle a 90A breaker that it the initial direction I am taking.

I’ve done lots of welding at 125 amps and much higher and that’s why I thought between the popping breaker and the description of how hot the weld was vs the old welder ect it was making me believe maybe something was off with the machine and it was putting out far more than 125 like the dial said. I’m not there to run a bead like many so just going by your descriptions. A person that welds lots would be able to tell you right away if it was anything close to the 125 or way hotter. You can run uphill at 125 amps on heavier plate ect.

 

[OnlyStihl]

I’ve done lots of welding at 125 amps and much higher and that’s why I thought between the popping breaker and the description of how hot the weld was vs the old welder ect it was making me believe maybe something was off with the machine and it was putting out far more than 125 like the dial said. I’m not there to run a bead like many so just going by your descriptions. A person that welds lots would be able to tell you right away if it was anything close to the 125 or way hotter. You can run uphill at 125 amps on heavier plate ect.

I routinely ran my Century AC230 over a 100A. If I recall correctly striking an arc at less than 100 was difficult and would not maintain the arc. 130 or so was pretty much the default for the Century. I even bought some 1/16 rods to see if I could get it to weld at even lower settings. Nope! I did once have a Lincoln AC225, and its performance was about equal to the Century. Again, I go back to believing that the $6000 MSRP IdealArc is different. Not just a heavy beast but efficient. If it wasn't then it would be a dust collector at the factory, and finally scrapped.

 

[lehman live edge slab]

I routinely ran my Century AC230 over a 100A. If I recall correctly striking an arc at less than 100 was difficult and would not maintain the arc. 130 or so was pretty much the default for the Century. I even bought some 1/16 rods to see if I could get it to weld at even lower settings. Nope! I did once have a Lincoln AC225, and its performance was about equal to the Century. Again, I go back to believing that the $6000 MSRP IdealArc is different. Not just a heavy beast but efficient. If it wasn't then it would be a dust collector at the factory, and finally scrapped.

That’s a lot to do with open circuit starting voltage, after the rod was burning the actual welding should have been similar between the two at 125. Unless something is wrong with one or the other and that’s why I was thinking a possibility of something wrong inside when it blew a breaker.

 

[Al Smith]

I think what's happening in this conversation is comparing a transformer machine with an engine driven welder .There's a lot of design methods on how they work to achieve the same results .Plus even if you know how explaining it might not be so easy .

 

[thompsoncustom]

Ya I'll be curious what your amp meter says once you take some readings between the 2 welders.

If I recall correctly striking an arc at less than 100 was difficult and would not maintain the arc. 130 or so was pretty much the default for the Century. I even bought some 1/16 rods to see if I could get it to weld at even lower settings. Nope!

This is where the new inverter welders shine, I can run beautiful beads at 40amps on exhaust pipe with 7014 rod with no problems starting but other than teaching my boy how to do it I use the mig welder for all work like that. If I use going to be doing a lot of welding tho in the higher amperage can't beat the old transformers.