What oil is best? and what ratio?

[rogue60]

Big hp gains? No!

Are you saying more oil in a 2T doesn't produce more hp? But It's been proven with dyno runs for decades. And seems it still holds true even today.
Anyways was asking about that oil anyone use it? I've never used it. Some of the pics I've seen of engines pulled down it's very clean burning even at 16:1 and 20:1 puts most oils to shame from what I've seen. Might get some to try in my bikes.

 

[bwalker]

Are you saying more oil in a 2T doesn't produce more hp? But It's been proven with dyno runs for decades. And seems it still holds true even today.
Anyways was asking about that oil anyone use it? I've never used it. Some of the pics I've seen of engines pulled down it's very clean burning even at 16:1 and 20:1 puts most oils to shame from what I've seen. Might get some to try in my bikes.

I am well aware of that. What I am saying is there isn't a wonder oil that makes big HP gains. Low numeric ratios do make more HP, but again not big gains.
I've noted that engines ran on low numeric ratios run really clean. That is besides the exhaust outlet in some cases.
I've known a few people that have ran it with no apparent issues, but can't comment on its quality past that. It does smell like strawberries. Almost sickenly so.

 

[edisto]

I've ran a ton of Citgo Sea and Snow in sleds. I've also used Citgo air cooled in saws, trimmers,blowers at 32:1. Both are good products although I will not run injector oils in pre mix applications.

Thanks!

The JT-4 Snowmobile is full synthetic, so maybe it's not directly related to the Citgo oils. I did notice today that the gallon jug is identical (except for the color) to the Harvest King jug holding my bar and chain oil. That likely doesn't mean much though.

I have some quarts of Silkolene gathering dust because they are for injectors. The Mystik says it is for both premix and injector, so hopefully it isn't too thin.

 

[bwalker]

Thanks!

The JT-4 Snowmobile is full synthetic, so maybe it's not directly related to the Citgo oils. I did notice today that the gallon jug is identical (except for the color) to the Harvest King jug holding my bar and chain oil. That likely doesn't mean much though.

I have some quarts of Silkolene gathering dust because they are for injectors. The Mystik says it is for both premix and injector, so hopefully it isn't too thin.

Harvest King, Mystik are all made by Citgo.

 

[SawNut]

I've ran a ton of Citgo Sea and Snow in sleds. I've also used Citgo air cooled in saws, trimmers,blowers at 32:1. Both are good products although I will not run injector oils in pre mix applications.

I've used their 2 stroke oils for 20 years, in various applications. My engines have always been very clean upon tear down, and always had a nice oily film left behind. I do see that their air cooled oil is low ash, and the Sea and Snow is basically no ash. I'm kind of surprised by that. They used to be the same thing, at least according to their technical documents. All other published specs are equal between them. Since that change, I've only used the Air Cooled oil in my air cooled 2 strokes...I'm not convinced that it matters though. Their Sea and Snow is approved for air cooled usage, so I'm not sure what's different about an air cooled sled engine vs. an air cooled saw or 2S trimmer, as far as 2 stroke oil requirements are concerned.

There was also a time where Yamalube 2S was made by Citgo, and was basically Sea and Snow as well. Not sure if that's still true today, and if the Yamalube 2S formula has changed the way Sea and Snow has as well.

 

[bwalker]

I've used their 2 stroke oils for 20 years, in various applications. My engines have always been very clean upon tear down, and always had a nice oily film left behind. I do see that their air cooled oil is low ash, and the Sea and Snow is basically no ash. I'm kind of surprised by that. They used to be the same thing, at least according to their technical documents. All other published specs are equal between them. Since that change, I've only used the Air Cooled oil in my air cooled 2 strokes...I'm not convinced that it matters though. Their Sea and Snow is approved for air cooled usage, so I'm not sure what's different about an air cooled sled engine vs. an air cooled saw or 2S trimmer, as far as 2 stroke oil requirements are concerned.

There was also a time where Yamalube 2S was made by Citgo, and was basically Sea and Snow as well. Not sure if that's still true today, and if the Yamalube 2S formula has changed the way Sea and Snow has as well.

Sea and snow is a low ash oil. Sea and snow and air cooled were never the same. Sea and snow is much thinner.
Sea and snow is FD certified, so it will have slightly.less.ash than air cooled which is FC.

 

[SawNut]

Sea and snow is a low ash oil. Sea and snow and air cooled were never the same. Sea and snow is much thinner.
Sea and snow is FD certified, so it will have slightly.less.ash than air cooled which is FC.

They are both currently FD certified, and have identical viscosities (all properties listed in fact, except ash content), according to the Mystik website. FD specs call for under .18% sulfated ash, which they both meet. Mystik S&S is listed at .01% and the other is .13%. To me, .01% ash content, is essentially ashless.

S&S used to be much higher in ash content, and was most likely reformulated to meet FD specs a decade or so ago. Citgo Air Cooled is called Lawn and Garden oil under the Mystik name. Again, all properties appear to match between those two variants. Citgo branded Sea & Snow actually lists 0% ash content on their website spec sheet, even though I'm inclined to believe that's incorrect. All 4 of these oils have identical specs, except for supposed varying ash content. I don't actually see the Citgo branded oils locally anymore. They all carry the Mystik name now. I'm not sure if only gas stations carry the Citgo name now, or what.

 

[bwalker]

They are both currently FD certified, and have identical viscosities (all properties listed in fact, except ash content), according to the Mystik website. FD specs call for under .18% sulfated ash, which they both meet. Mystik S&S is listed at .01% and the other is .13%. To me, .01% ash content, is essentially ashless.

S&S used to be much higher in ash content, and was most likely reformulated to meet FD specs a decade or so ago. Citgo Air Cooled is called Lawn and Garden oil under the Mystik name. Again, all properties appear to match between those two variants. Citgo branded Sea & Snow actually lists 0% ash content on their website spec sheet, even though I'm inclined to believe that's incorrect. All 4 of these oils have identical specs, except for supposed varying ash content. I don't actually see the Citgo branded oils locally anymore. They all carry the Mystik name now. I'm not sure if only gas stations carry the Citgo name now, or what.

You have to consider a few things.
All FD oils use mettalic detergents, which is what the ash measures. Acid is reacted with a sample of oil in a cup and the resulting mettalic "ash" is where the number comes from.
TCW3 boat oils are completely ashless as they don't use mettalic detergents and instead use amine based dispersents.
Ash content should not be too high, which is why it's part of the FD spec as it can build up on the crown and head, which causes pre ignition.
Two cycle oils in general use very little additives and their treat rates are very low.
I would bet the measurement is a misprint. I base this on the TBN number.
I haven't bothered to look up the numbers for Aircooled in many years as there are no Citgo retailers in Montana, but when I used the stuff back in Michigan the air cooled variety was significantly thicker than Sea and Snow. Maybe this has changed?

 

[Flying_Dutchman]

I started using air cooled about 7 years ago I think, and it was FD back then already. Also still a little thicker than sea and snow

 

[bwalker]

And FWIW I would not use an ashless oil in any aircooled two stroke besides a Lawnboy mower or Toro snow blower.

 

[bwalker]

So curiosity got the better of me so I looked up the PI sheets for Mystik S&S, Citgo S&S and Citgo Aircooled. They are identical besides the ash number which is different for all three! The TBN is 2.2, so there is no way the ash number is zero.
If I ran any of these in a pre mix application it would be at 32:1.

 

[huskihl]

So curiosity got the better of me so I looked up the PI sheets for Mystik S&S, Citgo S&S and Citgo Aircooled. They are identical besides the ash number which is different for all three! The TBN is 2.2, so there is no way the ash number is zero.
If I ran any of these in a pre mix application it would be at 32:1.

That’s the ratio I ran the sea and snow at. It required that much to leave anything wet in the case. I have no idea if that’s required or not, but it’s something that I can see

 

[bwalker]

That’s the ratio I ran the sea and snow at. It required that much to leave anything wet in the case. I have no idea if that’s required or not, but it’s something that I can see

I only ran sea and snow in a Doo snowmobile that had an oil use rate equivalent to 20:1 or better depending on how hard I pounded it.
That particular year Ski Doo 800 ate pistons rings like crazy. Mine didn't despite heavy use and I wasnt gentle with it. I chalk that up to never turning the oil pump down to 50:1 like many guys did.
FWIW Sea and Snow was priced at like $7 a gallon back then.

 

[SawNut]

~2003 Doo 800? Weren't they single moly faced rings or something like that? I vaguely remember those being an issue. Several companies came out with aftermarket dual ring pistons as a fix. Haven't been in the sled scene in a long time. Parts of it I miss, and other parts I don't.

 

[bwalker]

~2003 Doo 800? Weren't they single moly faced rings or something like that? I vaguely remember those being an issue. Several companies came out with aftermarket dual ring pistons as a fix. Haven't been in the sled scene in a long time. Parts of it I miss, and other parts I don't.

It was an 05. The problem existed for years both before and after.
And yes, the rings had a groove on the surface that was filled with moly. The moly over heated and burn out causing a loss of compression.

 

[whitesnake]

Apparently 2R is one hell of an oil, and being a Gp1 & 2 non synthetic it's got a large following.

Ive used a lot of it as I bought all the oil/maintenance products from a small business that was going out. It’s never done me wrong. Not going to says it’s the absolute best but it’s very far from the worst. Definitely not doing any harm. I think I have a few pints left. Now…if only I could find a use for the couple gallons of 2S I have left.

 

[bwalker]

Ive used a lot of it as I bought all the oil/maintenance products from a small business that was going out. It’s never done me wrong. Not going to says it’s the absolute best but it’s very far from the worst. Definitely not doing any harm. I think I have a few pints left. Now…if only I could find a use for the couple gallons of 2S I have left.

Its not expensive and it's only partially synthetic(nost FD oils are as well), but I would wager that no oil mentioned in this thread has as long of a track record of great performance. Much of that record in machines way more high strung than even the badest woods port chainsaw.
Run it at 32:1 and worry about more important stuff.

 

[hvacman04]

46:1 motul 800.

Dear Jughead, where is the best place and price wise to get motul 800, sir. I am starting to use this sir.
Thanks Buck

 

[hvacman04]

I like H1/R exhaust fumes. They smelly yummy. The raw mix gas fumes burn the chit outta my eyes though.

Cgraham1, this is elderly post, the oil you mention H1/R is that premixed type for saws. Graham if it is where the best price and place to get it. I use Amsoil SABRE and maxima K2, thinking about motul
800. The amsoil SABRE calls for 100 to 1 not me , I use 32 to 1. I have never killed a saw from too much oil yet , I may. Thanks Graham for this help or a different brand oil you like or is better protection. Thanks Graham, Buck

 

[whitesnake]

Its not expensive and it's only partially synthetic(nost FD oils are as well), but I would wager that no oil mentioned in this thread has as long of a track record of great performance. Much of that record in machines way more high strung than even the badest woods port chainsaw.
Run it at 32:1 and worry about more important stuff.

The 2S? The 2R I’ve been running. But have probably a couple gallons of the 2S I wasn’t sure what to do with.