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The "Broken046," and how it got MOFO'd

Keith Gandy

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I was talking to Deets. He had two 066 OEM pistons off by .017. One was cast by Mahle and one by Köelbenschmidt.
Al, I see where being out of sqaure side to side on the base will cause issues but if the squish is out of square say .018 to .022 side to side, what disadvantages will that cause? Odd or uneven combustion? Uneven transfer flows?
 

paragonbuilder

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Al, I see where being out of sqaure side to side on the base will cause issues but if the squish is out of square say .018 to .022 side to side, what disadvantages will that cause? Odd or uneven combustion? Uneven transfer flows?

I would think it would not cause any issues, in fact you would never know it. Many jugs are not perfect when new. But it certainly is not optimal for scavenging.


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drf256

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Pretty sure squish is out that much oem Keith. I bet it means nothing unless it's a sign of an unsquare cylinder wall.

Kevin has shown that OEM squish is out frequently. He has a unique and precise process. I'm pretty sure the bases are always dead on square to the bore.
 

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I would think it would not cause any issues, in fact you would never know it. Many jugs are not perfect when new. But it certainly is not optimal for scavenging.


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When you think about the combustion process, and the percentage of charge left in the squish area at TDC, I don't think .001-.005 does very much. The speed and velocity would help charge tumble and burn, I just don't think being upset about a few thou is worth it.

I bet many of us are wayyyyy off on squish measurements anyhow. @mdavlee has shown that solder vs. plastiguage has shown a significant difference. Guys running saws with .020 squish measured with .033 solder and only turned over for a few cycles to compress it are likely running sub-.015 and don't even know it.
 

drf256

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The other issue though, is that the charge in the squishband doesn't burn. The power in it is lost. So in saws with large squishband, a larger squish will likely lose a lot more power than the same on a saw with a smaller squishband.
 

Stump Shot

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@drf256 Like the good discussion about the piston Dr. Al. Yes all those few thousandths of an inch can add up. Lots of little lessons in here for other folks as well. The "out of spec" piston deal was one of my ways to decrease squish band clearance before I had a lathe. Besides the lesson of use the piston you are going to build the saw with when you are mocking things up. I've just waited a week for a new piston to show for my own saw that I plan to do a revisit on as it was one of the first I messed with, and I've learned so much since then hanging out with all of you guys here. Gaskets are much the same way some as much as .010" different from original, most around .003" difference. So I liked to order as many different base gaskets as I can get my hands on to help fine tune things. Now with the lathe I pick one and stay with it. Then there's the solder trick, several different sizes of solder are necessary to have on hand as just like you said one is needed to be close to the actual squish target number. I like to roll back and forth ten or more times until the resistance is felt to go away. Also it would be hard to say one would be a hack, had it been chosen to face the piston .010" in a lathe. Two ways of looking at that, a tad lighter piston will spool up faster. A tad thicker piston will run cooler. So usage comes into play here for us to make good decisions, as every action taken has an opposite and equal reaction.
Just chuckling to myself thinking how much nicer it is around here being able to talk about ideas back and forth freely again without JMS dominating the convo with he's right and you're not line of BS. Also for the readership don't think for even one second any of what i said here is to take one inkling away from the mighty damn fine job Dr. Al has done here on this power saw. I can't see one detail missed, the attention to detail is quite refreshing. Kudos all around for giving us all good examples to go by.
 

Moparmyway

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Pretty sure squish is out that much oem Keith. I bet it means nothing unless it's a sign of an unsquare cylinder wall.

Kevin has shown that OEM squish is out frequently. He has a unique and precise process. I'm pretty sure the bases are always dead on square to the bore.
I have another way too, that I use the mandrel for setup. Just couldn't find that mandrel when you were here. I'll show you next time we have some sudz
 

Mastermind

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I use .06mm solder. Winds up around .024 uncrushed.

Mike lee had said to use what's closet to your intended squish.

I shoot for 020" and use .06mm solder for final check. Hard to even feel it touch.

Keith, using 030" and compressing it to 020" isn't gonna be real accurate.

:(
 

Deets066

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Al, I see where being out of sqaure side to side on the base will cause issues but if the squish is out of square say .018 to .022 side to side, what disadvantages will that cause? Odd or uneven combustion? Uneven transfer flows?


It wasn't the squish band that was out of square. It was just a difference in crown height on the pistons
 

drf256

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@drf256 Like the good discussion about the piston Dr. Al. Yes all those few thousandths of an inch can add up. Lots of little lessons in here for other folks as well. The "out of spec" piston deal was one of my ways to decrease squish band clearance before I had a lathe. Besides the lesson of use the piston you are going to build the saw with when you are mocking things up. I've just waited a week for a new piston to show for my own saw that I plan to do a revisit on as it was one of the first I messed with, and I've learned so much since then hanging out with all of you guys here. Gaskets are much the same way some as much as .010" different from original, most around .003" difference. So I liked to order as many different base gaskets as I can get my hands on to help fine tune things. Now with the lathe I pick one and stay with it. Then there's the solder trick, several different sizes of solder are necessary to have on hand as just like you said one is needed to be close to the actual squish target number. I like to roll back and forth ten or more times until the resistance is felt to go away. Also it would be hard to say one would be a hack, had it been chosen to face the piston .010" in a lathe. Two ways of looking at that, a tad lighter piston will spool up faster. A tad thicker piston will run cooler. So usage comes into play here for us to make good decisions, as every action taken has an opposite and equal reaction.
Just chuckling to myself thinking how much nicer it is around here being able to talk about ideas back and forth freely again without JMS dominating the convo with he's right and you're not line of BS. Also for the readership don't think for even one second any of what i said here is to take one inkling away from the mighty damn fine job Dr. Al has done here on this power saw. I can't see one detail missed, the attention to detail is quite refreshing. Kudos all around for giving us all good examples to go by.
I try to be as honest as possible and show my mistakes too. I feel it leads to healthy discussion.

That's what learning is all about. I've made many mistakes, the trick is to catch them before something tragic occurs and your work quadruples.

I want the end product of this thread to be the best it can be.
 

Mastermind

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I try to be as honest as possible and show my mistakes too. I feel it leads to healthy discussion.

That's what learning is all about. I've made many mistakes, the trick is to catch them before something tragic occurs and your work quadruples.

I want the end product of this thread to be the best it can be.

So, about this political statement in your sig.....

:D
 

drf256

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It wasn't the squish band that was out of square. It was just a difference in crown height on the pistons
Lol

We were on the phone when I realized the squish was off. Many F-bombs and WTF's were thrown around.

My brightest idea of the night was not to attempt to touch the band and make it right at 11pm and complete exhaustion.
 
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