MS400.1 c-m

[farminkarman]

Any updates on when these will be available in the states?

I haven't seen any new news... I wouldn't be surprised if Husky tries to beat Stihl to market with the 564xp.

 

[lehman live edge slab]

Any updates on when these will be available in the states?

Last i heard is next spring when I asked

 

[lehman live edge slab]

Hearing a few rumors of the 500i getting bigger and smaller siblings in the not super distant future but no actual size class. Obviously pretty much has to be a 90 cc plus for the big one, who knows maybe some version of the new 910 I cut off saw that’s 102cc.

 

[bwalker]

Hearing a few rumors of the 500i getting bigger and smaller siblings in the not super distant future but no actual size class. Obviously pretty much has to be a 90 cc plus for the big one, who knows maybe some version of the new 910 I cut off saw that’s 102cc.

If that's the plan I would think new stihl injected saws would also be strato too due to the fleet emmissions scheme.

 

[2000ssm6]

The Dyno Joe test looked good, starting to see several guys state side with these in hand on the fb groups.

Anyone know if a standard carb will be an option?

 

[lehman live edge slab]

The Dyno Joe test looked good, starting to see several guys state side with these in hand on the fb groups.

Anyone know if a standard carb will be an option?

No, the 400.1 will be mtronic only, the 363 is the same saw basically with standard carb but has different cylinder and makes less power. I believe it’s like a lot of Stihl saws for other countries that’s set up to live on poor quality gas. I don’t think we will see anything but mtronic or efi saws going forward in the USA. Pretty sure the next generation replacement saws for the USA will either be unique models like the 363/400.1 or they will only make the mtronic ones for sale here. That’s ok with me I think for the most part it’s as good or better for average consumer and seems to get better all the time with new versions. Also seems to keep up fine with port work ect so I think the screwdriver is a thing of the past for us.

 

[el33t]

No, the 400.1 will be mtronic only, the 363 is the same saw basically with standard carb but has different cylinder and makes less power. I believe it’s like a lot of Stihl saws for other countries that’s set up to live on poor quality gas.

Chainsaws such as the MS 363 or MS 382 are designed for countries that still have more relaxed emission standards than North America or the EU. They are manufactured in Brazil.

Stihl chainsaws, which are designed to burn low-octane gasoline, are marked with the letter N and simply have a thicker base gasket (e.g., 1 mm instead of 0.5 mm) in order to reduce the compression ratio.

The required octane rating listed in the MS 363 or 382 operating manuals does not differ from that listed in the manuals intended for the EU (RON≥90). Gasoline should contain no more than 10% ethanol, unless the chainsaw is used in Brazil, in which case it can contain up to 27% and everything is fine.

 

[el33t]

If that's the plan I would think new stihl injected saws would also be strato too due to the fleet emmissions scheme.

In practice there is no emissions credit system for small engine equipment in the EU. Every device placed on the market must meet the current requirements.

Therefore, 15-18 years after the introduction of MS 170/180 to the market, their versions with stratified scavenging appeared in Europe. In America, the old (traditional) versions are still available.

Formally you can say the 500i is a “strato” chainsaw, because in the case of electronic injection, the effect of scavenging the combustion chamber with at least a very lean mixture can be achieved by appropriate timing (ports, injection).
Unlike a carburetor, the air flow through the intake does not have to cause the fuel to be discharged. The electromagnetic valve (injector) opens only according to the map in the control unit and the readings of the crankshaft position from the generator and the pressure and temperature sensors in the crankcase.
Stihl also includes the 500i in their category of 2-Mix engines.

As it turned out, despite the prevailing opinion in the late 1990s that two-stroke engines could not meet increasingly stringent emission requirements without a catalytic converter or new designs such as EFI or airhead stratified scavenging (Zenoah), Yamabiko sell chainsaws that meet these requirements without using any of these features. An example is Echo CS-7310, where they have achieved this by using six appropriately directed scavenging/transfer ports, which make the trapping efficiency significantly better than in older designs.
I guess the price is slightly lower performance than the competition.

And indeed, it appears that the 564 XP uses clean air ports to “stratify” the scavenging mixture, just like in “strato” chainsaws with carburetors. According to data from the EPA, HC+NOₓ (or CO) emissions are comparable to those of “strato” saws equipped with carbs and better than those of the 500i.

HC+NOₓ[g/kWh]
564: 59.5
562: 62
7310: 55.6
572: 55.1
500i: 68.5

CO [g/kWh]
564: 252
562: 299
7310: 317
572: 225
500i: 406

CO₂ [g/kWh] EPA/spec sheet
564: 791/762
562: 763/778
7310: 749/743
572: 808/841
500i: 732/706

 

[2000ssm6]

No, the 400.1 will be mtronic only, the 363 is the same saw basically with standard carb but has different cylinder and makes less power. I believe it’s like a lot of Stihl saws for other countries that’s set up to live on poor quality gas. I don’t think we will see anything but mtronic or efi saws going forward in the USA. Pretty sure the next generation replacement saws for the USA will either be unique models like the 363/400.1 or they will only make the mtronic ones for sale here. That’s ok with me I think for the most part it’s as good or better for average consumer and seems to get better all the time with new versions. Also seems to keep up fine with port work ect so I think the screwdriver is a thing of the past for us.

Hope that’s not true, not everyone wants mtron.

 

[lehman live edge slab]

Hope that’s not true, not everyone wants mtron.

I’m pretty much certain that this will be the case like it or not for husky and Stihl soon enough. Mtronic/autotune or efi is it and I’ve actually heard rumors that echo is working up a version of auto tune for their saws also. Pretty sure emission standards aren’t going away and even if they did mtronic is better and safer for the average person since most know nothing about tuning a carb ect.

 

[2000ssm6]

I’ll see how they pan out as more come in, got a ported 261 and 462 to keep me going for now.

 

[lehman live edge slab]

I’ll see how they pan out as more come in, got a ported 261 and 462 to keep me going for now.

I know plenty of people with ms 261c-m’s that have had no issues hardly in 10 years or more with them cutting firewood. One I did a recalibration on it after it lost its way tuning at about 7-8 years old. Other than that I tell him to change the fuel filter every year but of course it’s probably had 2-3 in its whole life that I installed. The other ones haven’t given any issues either, think I’ve changed out 4-5 solenoids and one complete carb on the other mtronic saws at the tree services. 362’s, 400’s and 201tcm’s

 

[bwalker]

In practice there is no emissions credit system for small engine equipment in the EU. Every device placed on the market must meet the current requirements.

Therefore, 15-18 years after the introduction of MS 170/180 to the market, their versions with stratified scavenging appeared in Europe. In America, the old (traditional) versions are still available.

Formally you can say the 500i is a “strato” chainsaw, because in the case of electronic injection, the effect of scavenging the combustion chamber with at least a very lean mixture can be achieved by appropriate timing (ports, injection).
Unlike a carburetor, the air flow through the intake does not have to cause the fuel to be discharged. The electromagnetic valve (injector) opens only according to the map in the control unit and the readings of the crankshaft position from the generator and the pressure and temperature sensors in the crankcase.
Stihl also includes the 500i in their category of 2-Mix engines.

As it turned out, despite the prevailing opinion in the late 1990s that two-stroke engines could not meet increasingly stringent emission requirements without a catalytic converter or new designs such as EFI or airhead stratified scavenging (Zenoah), Yamabiko sell chainsaws that meet these requirements without using any of these features. An example is Echo CS-7310, where they have achieved this by using six appropriately directed scavenging/transfer ports, which make the trapping efficiency significantly better than in older designs.
I guess the price is slightly lower performance than the competition.

And indeed, it appears that the 564 XP uses clean air ports to “stratify” the scavenging mixture, just like in “strato” chainsaws with carburetors. According to data from the EPA, HC+NOₓ (or CO) emissions are comparable to those of “strato” saws equipped with carbs and better than those of the 500i.

HC+NOₓ[g/kWh]
564: 59.5
562: 62
7310: 55.6
572: 55.1
500i: 68.5

CO [g/kWh]
564: 252
562: 299
7310: 317
572: 225
500i: 406

CO₂ [g/kWh] EPA/spec sheet
564: 791/762
562: 763/778
7310: 749/743
572: 808/841
500i: 732/706

The 500I is not close to a strato emmissions wise, nor design wise, so you can't say it is strato like.

 

[bwalker]

I know plenty of people with ms 261c-m’s that have had no issues hardly in 10 years or more with them cutting firewood. One I did a recalibration on it after it lost its way tuning at about 7-8 years old. Other than that I tell him to change the fuel filter every year but of course it’s probably had 2-3 in its whole life that I installed. The other ones haven’t given any issues either, think I’ve changed out 4-5 solenoids and one complete carb on the other mtronic saws at the tree services. 362’s, 400’s and 201tcm’s

It baffles me that a simple solenoid drives guys crazy.

 

[lehman live edge slab]

It baffles me that a simple solenoid drives guys crazy.

It’s a what you perceive as the best in your mind I guess, like it or not the mtronic/autotune has saved a lot of saws that would have been junk because a lot of owners don’t catch that it was running poorly which saves husky and Stihl money in parts if it’s a warranty claim sometimes. Bad crank seal under warranty could be a complete top end for Stihl or the saw runs like crap and gets brought in to be looked at but only needs the seal not a piston and cylinder. Same reason for nylon cage bearings there’s a reason they switched to them over metal. It reduced warranty claims and the overall cost of the claims a good portion of the time. Yes a ball can get loose and destroy the top end but a metal cage coming apart almost always damages the cylinder beyond use.

 

[el33t]

The 500I is not close to a strato emmissions wise, not dwaign wise, so you can't say it is strato like.

I won't argue about the definition, because everyone can have their own.
But you're probably right that the new Stihl chainsaws with EFI, if they come onto the market, will meet your definition of “strato” and will be more similar to the 564 XP.
The new Stihl cut-off machines that were recently introduced to the market have just such engines.

You'll probably dismiss this as marketing BS, but it was written by engineers at Stihl Research about 500i:

The core engine uses the 2-Mix system by Stihl, which delivers optimised fuel efficiency and low emissions. The cross-sections and lengths of the transfer ports and the engine control timing have been specially adjusted to create internal stratified fuel charging by advancing the exhaust, thereby minimising scavenging losses during the load change in the gas cycle. In addition to the low exhaust emissions, the engine
has high combustion efficiency, which leads to a combination of low fuel consumption and high power output power.

 

[bwalker]

I won't argue about the definition, because everyone can have their own.
But you're probably right that the new Stihl chainsaws with EFI, if they come onto the market, will meet your definition of “strato” and will be more similar to the 564 XP.
The new Stihl cut-off machines that were recently introduced to the market have just such engines.

You'll probably dismiss this as marketing BS, but it was written by engineers at Stihl Research about 500i:

The core engine uses the 2-Mix system by Stihl, which delivers optimised fuel efficiency and low emissions. The cross-sections and lengths of the transfer ports and the engine control timing have been specially adjusted to create internal stratified fuel charging by advancing the exhaust, thereby minimising scavenging losses during the load change in the gas cycle. In addition to the low exhaust emissions, the engine
has high combustion efficiency, which leads to a combination of low fuel consumption and high power output power.

Strato charging is a patented technology. Its not a matter of opinion.
You might say a 500i is a lower emmisions technology, but you can't say its a strato, or even strato like, because it simply isnt.
As for the stihl write up. The proof is in the pudding when one looks at the emmisions numbers. That and all 2 strokes are stratified in varying degrees. What's different with strato charging is how its done.

 

[bwalker]

It’s a what you perceive as the best in your mind I guess, like it or not the mtronic/autotune has saved a lot of saws that would have been junk because a lot of owners don’t catch that it was running poorly which saves husky and Stihl money in parts if it’s a warranty claim sometimes. Bad crank seal under warranty could be a complete top end for Stihl or the saw runs like crap and gets brought in to be looked at but only needs the seal not a piston and cylinder. Same reason for nylon cage bearings there’s a reason they switched to them over metal. It reduced warranty claims and the overall cost of the claims a good portion of the time. Yes a ball can get loose and destroy the top end but a metal cage coming apart almost always damages the cylinder beyond use.

I've said it before and I will say it again. The average person can't tune a carb to save their lives. With that said Mtronic/Autotune are a benefit in performance, longetivity and reliability.

 

[huskihl]

Strato charging is a patented technology. Its not a matter of opinion.
You might say a 500i is a lower emmisions technology, but you can't say its a strato, or even strato like, because it simply isnt.
As for the stihl write up. The proof is in the pudding when one looks at the emmisions numbers. That and all 2 strokes are stratified in varying degrees. What's different with strato charging is how it’s done.

I don’t believe there’s any “low emissions technology“ in a 500. They burn almost as much fuel as a 661. Spark plugs are always chocolate brown or even wet.

Stihl claims Strato scavenging on the 461, 661, and 500 but it’s done with the exhaust packing back through the transfers on top of the charge. Like you said, not fresh air Strato scavenging like most newer saws now

 

[bwalker]

I don’t believe there’s any “low emissions technology“ in a 500. They burn almost as much fuel as a 661. Spark plugs are always chocolate brown or even wet.

Stihl claims Strato scavenging on the 461, 661, and 500 but it’s done with the exhaust packing back through the transfers on top of the charge. Like you said, not fresh air Strato scavenging like most newer saws now

Yea, its not strato in the sense that Husky employs. The 500I just sprays fuel into the crankcase. Any stratification that takes place isn't with fresh air as in strato charged technology. The emmisions numbers posted prove this to be true.