Gutting the hinge discussion

[Catbuster]

I actually did take a swipe at the heart on this one. Thick side = tension.

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I don’t see where you did-maybe I’m seeing things differently. If you did though, you didn’t take enough.

That’s a lot of wedges. Do think gutting the fiber pull area would have helped?

Yes. That is exactly why production cutters in hardwoods gut that area. It makes the tree easier to wedge, and it prevents fiber pull.

 

[davidwyby]

That’s a lot of wedges. Do think gutting the fiber pull area would have helped?

Probably. Limb tied back leaner too.

 

[davidwyby]

I don’t see where you did-maybe I’m seeing things differently. If you did though, you didn’t take enough.



Yes. That is exactly why production cutters in hardwoods gut that area. It makes the tree easier to wedge, and it prevents fiber pull.

The little divot into the back side of the hinge, I stuck the nose in the back of the hinge when I took the bar out.

 

[Catbuster]

The little divot into the back side of the hinge, I stuck the nose in the back of the hinge when I took the bar out.

I follow. When I’m thinking about gutting the hinge I’m more in the leaving somewhere between 10-25% as posts on the outside and really cutting all of what’s in the middle.

 

[davidwyby]

I follow. When I’m thinking about gutting the hinge I’m more in the leaving somewhere between 10-25% as posts on the outside and really cutting all of what’s in the middle.

Yeah...I think I'm about done with gap faces and tall thin hinges. Only question left is two fat posts or one thin hinge. @afleetcommand doesn't want to pull fiber, so he designs his cuts so that the tree crushes the hinge. I'm not worried about pulling fiber, these short grained trees don't pull much anyway. I want control, so my face and hinge need to be able to support the tree. I think that's why the bigger trees I winched over with thicker hinges actually hinged - but wedging those would have been nigh on impossible.

 

[Hoser]

Does that % of heart bored out matter depending on tree diameter/ how dead it is?
I tried it on a couple ash and elm last year but always left 30-50%, mainly just wanted to reduce the risk of the ash chairing, limb weight and lean were favourable to direction it needed to go.

 

[Catbuster]

Does that % of heart bored out matter depending on tree diameter/ how dead it is?
I tried it on a couple ash and elm last year but always left 30-50%, mainly just wanted to reduce the risk of the ash chairing, limb weight and lean were favourable to direction it needed to go.

If I want more directional control I’ll leave the posts fatter. Sometimes front to back is just as helpful as side-to-side width.

If I’m worried about barberchair I’ll leave the posts smaller so there’s less wood to pull. Dead Ash trees are brutal.

I may be completely backwards with this line of thinking though.

It sounds like a cop out, but it’s not an exact science, especially with hardwood trees, and especially ones with big tops.

 

[davidwyby]

It’s is said that on green trees at least, the sap (outer) wood is more flexible and may hold better…center/heart wood less flexible and less hold, more resistant to wedging.

 

[Woodpecker]

If I want more directional control I’ll leave the posts fatter. Sometimes front to back is just as helpful as side-to-side width.

If I’m worried about barberchair I’ll leave the posts smaller so there’s less wood to pull. Dead Ash trees are brutal.

I may be completely backwards with this line of thinking though.

It sounds like a cop out, but it’s not an exact science, especially with hardwood trees, and especially ones with big tops.

I don’t think that’s a cop out at all. Everything is subjective and based upon what result needs to be achieved as far as hinge wood is concerned. For example, good luck getting a dead white ash to hinge at all or a white pine for that matter.

The rule of thumb I was taught as a young cull is that the hinge should be 80% the length of the DBH of the tree and 10% the width. So a 25” DBH tree “should” have a 20” length x 2.5” wide hinge. So if I followed that rule I’d gut only 5” of the heartwood. However, the sheer amount of variables involved practically render that rule moot. It’s really just a basic starting point. Experience has taught me there is a whole lotta CYA and oh shít baked into that rule.

At this point I rely on feel and species dependent knowledge when setting up the hinge. Having said all that my goals are going to vary greatly from someone who isn’t working everyday in small suburban/city residential lots.

 

[Hoser]

I did play a little with steering the tree by gutting out the centre of the hinge unevenly instead steering it with my back cut.
I mostly cut dead ash so I just try to do what I can to not smash up the crown of healthy trees but also hang around the stump as little as possible.
If any of that makes sense.
Excellent discussion/ pointers, thank you

 

[Mastermind]

Great discussion men.

 

[Scott Kelsey]

Can you guys explain to me what you mean by getting the hinge? I would appreciate it.

 

[Hoser]

Boring out the centre of your hingewood, So your hinge is now 2 posts and not the full diameter of the tree.
I use it on trees I think are going to barberchair to reduce any risks.
Actual loggers use it to eliminate any fibre pull out of the butt log (and I imagine safety as well).

 

[Hoser]

I have yet another question for the experts.

Would there be any point to gutting the hinge on a tree if you’re not bore cutting it?
I was caught unprepared a couple weekends ago when a land owner said he wanted me to blast a couple hazard trees over.
SO what I did was tall shallow face cut, gut the hinge, then go for broke getting it cut up.
But I’m stuck thinking if there was any real point to taking the middle out of it?

 

[davidwyby]

I would usually not gut the hinge on a hazard snag. Too many variables though. What species, where the good wood is or not, lean…

Basically, keep plenty of wood on the tension side.

Something very important to be careful of. I cut a head leaning Siberian elm the other day and gutted the hinge mostly for grins, I also gutted most of the tree, aka cut a lot of the back cut from the front. Big mistake. I got lucky and it was fine, but gutting the core of the tree from the front could get you squished if there is insufficient holding wood in the back, or you accidentally cut too much. Another thing is you’re probably hunkered down and wouldn’t see it coming either.

BBR has been cutting hardwood lately and he only guts the depth of the hinge from the front, a process I think I will adopt and only cut the back from the back.

 

[davidwyby]

Rabbit trail: last time I was cutting those Siberian elms I only had a 32” bar and they were mostly close to 3’, so I had to work my way around, check and pay attention more. Some hazards for various reasons. This time I brought a 90cc saw and 36” bar. Way faster, easier, and more efficient when the bar reaches through the tree. Stay on the safe (tension) side, establish min tension side hinge thickness (set dogs), and cut until it goes (head leaners) or your sights hit the gun/lay and then wedge a little. Always a little high on the back cut.

Eastern methods are what they are for good reason, but I don’t care to use them if I don’t have to. I ended on a tall open shallow vertical face and cut them off at the ground for the stump grinder…and had to sharpen and or swap out chains from being on the dirty part of the tree.

 

[Wonkydonkey]

I have yet another question for the experts.

Would there be any point to gutting the hinge on a tree if you’re not bore cutting it?
I was caught unprepared a couple weekends ago when a land owner said he wanted me to blast a couple hazard trees over.
SO what I did was tall shallow face cut, gut the hinge, then go for broke getting it cut up.
But I’m stuck thinking if there was any real point to taking the middle out of it?

Over Here a reason to gut the hinge, is when there isn’t room to just fell a tree and you have removed most or all of the crown. So what you don’t want is a thin hinge to easily fell it and the hinge snaps, what is needed is a thick-ish hinge but not all the way. Hence gutting it enough to still have control (thick-ish) and it not snapping.
If you get what I’m trying to say

Edit : to be clearer. There’s very little weight up top and a thin hinge would be easy to fell it but less or little control when it goes, where as a thicker hinge would mean making it harder to get it to go, hence gutting the centre etc.

 

[Catbuster]

I have yet another question for the experts.

Would there be any point to gutting the hinge on a tree if you’re not bore cutting it?
I was caught unprepared a couple weekends ago when a land owner said he wanted me to blast a couple hazard trees over.
SO what I did was tall shallow face cut, gut the hinge, then go for broke getting it cut up.
But I’m stuck thinking if there was any real point to taking the middle out of it?

Yeah, there are plenty of other reasons than preventing fiber pull. If you have too short a bar it can help yoi get your back cut cut all the way without having to cut windows. It’s a technique I’ve used when I had a really big (~60”) tree to handle and the bar I had was 28.” You cut the center out, with big posts on the corners, then come do your regular back cut.

It is more helpful to make sure you have some wedges when you do your back cut. Taking the center leaves more wood toward the back of the tree, making it less makanced, and it’s easier for the tree to sit back.

 

[Hoser]

Thanks fellas
It sounds like I was on right track,
Most of the trees I felled had the tops smashed out of them OR were still hanging off the front(in the direction I was felling) so more or less just a stem.
I didn’t bore the whole middle out far just took a bar nose worth off the hinge to help it tip when I got the tree cut up.
I don’t really like banging wedges when there’s loose limbs above me so I try to avoid it.