Gutting the hinge discussion

[davidwyby]

When do you do it or not, how much and why? Pros, cons, species?

 

[Loony661]

When do you do it or not, how much and why? Pros, cons, species?

Almost always. To save the log, of course.

Amount of side hinge left is determined by species, diameter, and how much I need to steer it.

 

[Mastermind]

I'm always more concerned with steering the tree to my desired landing spot than I am with pulling fiber....so I only start gutting my hinge when I need to lose some to get the top moving.

 

[Stihlalltheway]

On small trees to push a wedge through, or hardwoods to save the butt log. Can help with healthy green trees to get some directional stuff going too, don’t go crazy with it on snags and don’t take out more than you really need

 

[Ketchup]

Sometimes we do it to help pull a spar over. Faster than stacking wedges. Can be dangerous though.

 

[RCBS]

Only when I screw up and the tree needs a tickle. The flat top cutters are artists.

 

[Woodpecker]

I’ll gut the hinge on small trees to make room for wedges or on leaners along with a bore back cut to help mitigate any chance of barberchair. Definitely not a beginner technique though. Practice on a short stub.

 

[davidwyby]

I should have been a little clearer on my OP. I've studied and used them before but I'm kicking some theories around and wanted to stir up some discussion.

Last year I experimented with trying to get (green) brittle eucalyptus to hinge. The normal box face/trad humboldt and high back cut with a thin hinge (theory being it would flex) didn't really work. Would just snap off top or bottom or crush under the weight of the tree. Where I had more success was thicker hinges, more wood in the front to compress and in the rear to pull (a low back cut seemed to help the one time I tried it) but those were tall trees winched over. Trying to wedge them would be a booger, so I'm thinking gutting to make them easier to wedge. Since I can't get out and do it now, figured I'd get it kicked around some.

 

[Hoser]

I was wondering the same thing last night. Thinking if you gutted the middle of the hinge on a hard leaning ash along with bore cutting the back would that reduce the risk of barberchairs?
Can it be used to steer trees to save banging wedges? I cut for some buddy’s with sawmills but mostly it’s going for firewood so pull doesn’t matter as much as safety (priority) and direction

 

[davidwyby]

Yes it helps prevent pull. If you want to avoid pull, talk to or watch @afleetcommand stuff on YT.

 

[afleetcommand]

Yes it helps prevent pull. If you want to avoid pull, talk to or watch @afleetcommand stuff on YT.

Yeah have done a lot of ash over the years. Also have a bunch of video's demonstrating the pro's and cons But to the gut the hinge thing.... you HAVE to know your tree's , last thing u want to do is take too much and let the leaner release too soon with too weak a hinge while your cutting. Here is one of many from a coupled years back where I wrestle with that A few things I don't know if I mentioned, the open face means the tree is almost on the ground before there is a chance of that face cut closing and snapping the hinge. Something many don't think about, when ever the hinge closes to soon on these, it either pulls or breaks and pulls IF if breaks... it drops to the heavy side as the hinge no longer has any control....its broke

Also on heavy lean tree's they "stick" as they want to go to the heavy side, not where the hinge tries to guide them, so need enough hinge to "hang" on while wedging over that tree. And often I support the heavy side hinge with wedges. as well.

On that tree the hinge broke before closing the hinge....what I want. Partly because the OTHER little detail is the tree is crushing the hinge as it begins it's journey down, and that at times can compromise the hinge as well.....and it was cold, real cold that day also effecting the wood characteristics

This was with a 372 based saw with a 28inch bar & chain combo. Had to cut root flares both to reduce chance of pulls but also the reach thru with that 28 inch Bare. Also left a little "heavier" than usual hinge because it was a heavy lean tree... I'll post a video later I guess of some HUGE dead and rotter Ash felling. That was scary stuff. But first this one :

 

[afleetcommand]

Some raw video of big dead tree's that can kill you if they chair. And they want to chair . Have to not let the face cut close until I'm way gone. And bore cut as much as possible before cutting the trigger

 

[afleetcommand]

Last in this video I wanted to show what propagates a barber chair, so I left a LOT of hinge to show how the chair starts at the back....didn't quite get it to barber chair but you can see how the stress forms that can create one. I will prolly re do this video and force a chair for demo purposes. But "staged" these with too thick of a hinge, second one with the middle/heart wood cut out and the first one the thick hinge all the way across....the difference is what is at the heart of this thread Also a demonstration the reasons to bore cut from the front on those with a propensity to fiber pull.

 

[Hoser]

I’ve watched a lot of your videos over the years. I appreciate and thank you for the no BS approach, just solid education. If I was closer I’d pack your gas just to learn a thing or two

 

[Catbuster]

Damn, also late to the party here, just like the clearing thread.

It has one particular use in northern/eastern hardwood species, think White Ash, White Oak, Shagbark Hickory, & Black Walnut. Most mills that mill hardwood lumber deduct a lot for imperfections logs like knots or branch collars. This basically gives a logger up to the first big leader of the top to send as a saw log. In a lot of species, at least here, you get 14-20’ of the butt log. The fibers in the trees here are a lot more brittle and will, not might, pull. If you look, most pulled fiber is from the heart. Gutting the center of the hinge and then the controlled release of boring in and leaving a back strap helps a lot in keeping wood in the log & getting maximum board feet.

Secondly, it can be helpful when under-barred while still keeping directional control. It may be hard to believe, the outside of the hinge wood is doing most of the work directing a felled tree. Don’t ask me for a percentage, but due to it having the longest lever/moment arms against rotation along the center of the trunk, it’s what actually keeps a tree from spinning off the stump. Think about trying to cut a four foot tree with a 20” bar. Or a six footer with a 28” bar-I’ve had to do a few of those. Or some of the monsters guys in B.C are cutting with 36” bars. Boring in through the face gets part of the back cut done that you can’t reach when you’re under barred.

Lastly… And I shudder to think of it, you can set yourself to spend less time on the back cut. Underpowered saw, hazard snag, yada or whatever, you gotta cut the back quick and get the hell out, you can use it to get wood out of your back cut, and save time that way. But, that would be probably last resort.

 

[Ketchup]

Sometimes we cut trees that need to roll a certain direction. Gutting the hinge and nipping the cambium on one side can help roll the tree once it hits. I guess it’s similar to a Sizwell. I’ve used it topping some pines as well. Helps them dangle over to a better fall zone. You have to do a low cut there or the bark can peel down into your rope and lanyard.

 

[Loony661]

Damn, also late to the party here, just like the clearing thread.

It has one particular use in northern/eastern hardwood species, think White Ash, White Oak, Shagbark Hickory, & Black Walnut. Most mills that mill hardwood lumber deduct a lot for imperfections logs like knots or branch collars. This basically gives a logger up to the first big leader of the top to send as a saw log. In a lot of species, at least here, you get 14-20’ of the butt log. The fibers in the trees here are a lot more brittle and will, not might, pull. If you look, most pulled fiber is from the heart. Gutting the center of the hinge and then the controlled release of boring in and leaving a back strap helps a lot in keeping wood in the log & getting maximum board feet.

Secondly, it can be helpful when under-barred while still keeping directional control. It may be hard to believe, the outside of the hinge wood is doing most of the work directing a felled tree. Don’t ask me for a percentage, but due to it having the longest lever/moment arms against rotation along the center of the trunk, it’s what actually keeps a tree from spinning off the stump. Think about trying to cut a four foot tree with a 20” bar. Or a six footer with a 28” bar-I’ve had to do a few of those. Or some of the monsters guys in B.C are cutting with 36” bars. Boring in through the face gets part of the back cut done that you can’t reach when you’re under barred.

Lastly… And I shudder to think of it, you can set yourself to spend less time on the back cut. Underpowered saw, hazard snag, yada or whatever, you gotta cut the back quick and get the hell out, you can use it to get wood out of your back cut, and save time that way. But, that would be probably last resort.

This. This is an excellent description of why hardwood loggers cut the heartwood on just about all the trees. It’s what we do, because we have to. And to reiterate a bit, the heartwood actually does not have much holding power in the hinge, so removing it is of little worry. It seems like a big deal to a lot of people who 1) don’t cut much hardwood, 2) only learned cutting trees from one source, and 3) aren’t cutting trees for value.

And I agree that a lot of these techniques are very regionally based. I certainly wouldn’t show up in Oregon telling them they’re cutting trees wrong.

 

[davidwyby]

I slammed wedges on two trees for a good long while yesterday. Luckily I had my Bjarne butler power wedges and a 6lb axe.

I later wished I had gutted the hinges. The center of the tree (assuming it’s healthy and not significant side lean) isn’t doing much but resist the wedging.

 

[davidwyby]

I actually did take a swipe at the heart on this one. Thick side = tension.

 

[Ketchup]

I actually did take a swipe at the heart on this one. Thick side = tension.

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That’s a lot of wedges. Do think gutting the fiber pull area would have helped?