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So who makes Stihl Pistons/Cylinders?

thompsoncustom

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So I emailed Mahle the other day with questions on where there Stihl Pistons are made and this is the response I got.

Dear Mr. Thompson,

We do not make pistons for the Stihl company ( haven't for many years), you should contact the company directly with your question.

info@stihl.de

Thank you

Mit freundlichen Grüßen / Kind regards,
Susanne Ortlieb - Kokkinidis
Info
MAHLE International GmbH

Pragstr. 26 - 46, 70376 Stuttgart, Germany
Phone: +49 711 501-0
info@mahle.com, https://www.mahle.com

So my question is since Mahle hasn't been making them for a long time who has?
 

huskihl

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Believe they all have an S stamped on them. Stihl probably makes them in house
 

bertfixessome

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Believe they all have an S stamped on them. Stihl probably makes them in house
I seriously doubt it.
While accountants with MBA's continue to run companies into the ground by blindly following what their text book instructed then every part & process that can be outsourced will be outsourced .
Remember they work on the assumption that all of the value is in the product name and all profits are derived from the board room.
As there are a lot of aftermarket Stihl castings originating in Italy & China that is where most of the cast parts would be made .
No foundry is going to the massive expense of making moulds of a part in order to sell 1/2 price aftermarket parts .
Germany achieved their "clean air" objectives by closing near 80% of their foundries & transferring casting production to China and Brazil .
Funny enough that is what the USA has done as well, if you add Mexico to that list .

If you look at what Stihl models have aftermarket parts available that will tell you when they stopped getting them made by Mahle .
Typically the customer ( stihl ) pay for the cost of making the moulds , or it is amortised in the first production contract .
Then when that part is discontinued the foundry will often sell the moulds to a 2nd tier foundry who will make the necessary repairs ( including removing the Stihl name & part number ) then do smaller batches as & when required . Hence genuine OEM after market parts using "original moulds ".
When those moulds become unreliable they get on sold to a third tier foundry and so on and so on .
The casting machines used to do Stihl cylinders would usually have something in the order of 20 to 100 moulds on them ( not necessarily all the same but all the same metal volume ) and when less are required they get fitted up to smaller & smaller casting machines all the way down to single mould machines remembering that a single mould could could produce anything from 1 to 20 castings.
Last year a Foundry in China commissioned the biggest aluminium casting machine in the world
From memory it could cast around 100 tons / hour with a staff of 1 & support staff of 3 , including automatic break out & return of the hot sprues, risers & runners back to the melt pot which saves around 10% of the energy used to remelt it .
Weigh a chain saw cylinder to get an idea of just how many engines that equates to .
 

bertfixessome

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On the web you never know who ( or what now days ) you are communicating with and what life experiences that may have had or not had.
Now I could say that I studied metallurgy for over 10 years and graduated right at the time that the metals industry collapsed down here.
I could or could not have been in tertiary metallurgy ( recycling ) for a decade and still subscribe to a lot of foundry journals because I have an interest .
or
I could be a 12 year old who gets their jollies by tanking BS to adults
It is up to the viewer to decide & do proper evaluations .

When you have been in an industry for while then you end up knowing how it works
I am sure everyone who is not a logger has no idea about how logging is really done.
I talk to so many people who actually believe that China just has millions of tiny factories with hundreds of millions of underpaid workers huntched over dimly lit desks making cheap stuff to be exported.
Where as in reality they have ultra modern factories with the most advanced technology availible making parts because the objective of the companies is to increase their sales & thus profits, not to produce the highest return to investors.
Thus if I wanted to install a new furnace the only thing the board wanted to know was "how many people will it make redundant" because they can announce a 10% cut in labour & that will cause the share price to skyrocket thus bigger bonuses for the directors.
The criteria for any purchase was the sacked worker wages had to equal the cost of the new gear in no more than 2 financial years .

Chinese, like Japanese do not sack employees when new technology is implimented, they expand their product range .
The prime method for US companies to increase the profits is to buy up the entire market so you get mammoth conglomerates like Stanley - B & D .
However this stifles real growth & innovation so over time the massive size no longer protects them
When B & S made 90% of their engines they made a lot more profit than they did when they sold off all of the manufacturing & just became an engine assembly company but the amount of capital needed to make this money was higher so the P:E ratio was low & P:E ratios are one of the tools used to determine directors bonuses.
Chinese / Korean / Japanese companies make more profit annually by making more products
US & Aust companies make more profit every year by cutting costs and often the higher profit comes from a falling revenue base .
 

huskihl

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I seriously doubt it.
While accountants with MBA's continue to run companies into the ground by blindly following what their text book instructed then every part & process that can be outsourced will be outsourced .
Remember they work on the assumption that all of the value is in the product name and all profits are derived from the board room.
As there are a lot of aftermarket Stihl castings originating in Italy & China that is where most of the cast parts would be made .
No foundry is going to the massive expense of making moulds of a part in order to sell 1/2 price aftermarket parts .
Germany achieved their "clean air" objectives by closing near 80% of their foundries & transferring casting production to China and Brazil .
Funny enough that is what the USA has done as well, if you add Mexico to that list .

If you look at what Stihl models have aftermarket parts available that will tell you when they stopped getting them made by Mahle .
Typically the customer ( stihl ) pay for the cost of making the moulds , or it is amortised in the first production contract .
Then when that part is discontinued the foundry will often sell the moulds to a 2nd tier foundry who will make the necessary repairs ( including removing the Stihl name & part number ) then do smaller batches as & when required . Hence genuine OEM after market parts using "original moulds ".
When those moulds become unreliable they get on sold to a third tier foundry and so on and so on .
The casting machines used to do Stihl cylinders would usually have something in the order of 20 to 100 moulds on them ( not necessarily all the same but all the same metal volume ) and when less are required they get fitted up to smaller & smaller casting machines all the way down to single mould machines remembering that a single mould could could produce anything from 1 to 20 castings.
Last year a Foundry in China commissioned the biggest aluminium casting machine in the world
From memory it could cast around 100 tons / hour with a staff of 1 & support staff of 3 , including automatic break out & return of the hot sprues, risers & runners back to the melt pot which saves around 10% of the energy used to remelt it .
Weigh a chain saw cylinder to get an idea of just how many engines that equates to .
With knowledge like that, it should be easy for you to find out who casts them.

I’ve seen Gilardoni, KS, Mahle, and Stihl stamped on cylinders.
 

thompsoncustom

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Well so far Stihl has kind of side stepped the question of where exactly they are made but this is what I got from them so far.

Dear Mr Thompson,



Thank you for contacting us at STIHL Customer Service.



Regarding your inquiry, STIHL tools and their components are produced in an international manufacturing network in 7 countries and on three continents: in Germany, Austria, Switzerland, the USA, Brazil, China and the Philippines. Each location has its own special competencies and areas of focus. No matter where a STIHL product is manufactured: all locations meet the high STIHL quality standards.





If you should happen to have any additional inquiries, please do not hesitate to reach out to the STIHL Customer Support, as we always remain at your disposal.





Kind regards,

STIHL Inc.
536 Viking Drive
VIRGINIA BEACH, VA 23452
USA

1-800-467-8445
www.stihlusa.com
 

bertfixessome

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With knowledge like that, it should be easy for you to find out who casts them.

I’ve seen Gilardoni, KS, Mahle, and Stihl stamped on cylinders.
Well Gilardoni is obviously in Italy
Mahle have plants all over the world
Now a number can be stamped into a part from anywhere so nothing to stop castings made in China being stamped Stihl in the USA
The castings all have witness marks, usually the one we are all familiar with is the clock mark and these will tell the company where & when a casting was made , sort of takes the place of batch numbers and for some it will also tell how many times the moulds have been refurbished .
This is one way you sort the quality from the junk
No form of batch markings = junk
Since 1981 Stihl identify the origin of the finished product with the first number of the serial number
I would imagine that had been discussed before
Interesting that China used to be 7 & 9 but lately they have dropped a specific "made in China " origin code as mor & more of the top shelf commercial grade tools get assembled in China .
AFAIK stihl do not have a Stihl foundry and buy in all of their castings .
Occasionally journals like Foundry Planet will have a nugget like brand X just signed a Y year supply contract with foundry Z but other than that is is guess work
Italy has some of the highest precision fine casting plants on the planet which funny enough sprung up from model aircraft engine assembly where Italy are still global leaders .
Casting World is another trade journal that often has tasty tit bits like VW killing an entire E-V model range because they could not get a guaranteed supply of cobalt for the entire expected model run . And world cobalt consumption to exceed demand by 2025 and cobalt becoming unavailable by 2040 unless more is discovered , remembering that it can take anything from to 15 years to get a cobalt mine built & producing
 

thompsoncustom

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So I replied and asked exactly which country or countries the cylinders and pistons are made in and they just keep side stepping the question either because this guy doesn't know or they are made in china like everything else these days.

Dear Mr. Thompson,

Thank you for contacting STIHL INC. To best answer your questions is that our cylinders and pistons are manufactured with in STIHL at one or more of our world wide manufacturing facilities


Best Regards,
Chad J
Technical Service Representative
---------------------------------------------------------
STIHL INCORPORATED
536 Viking Drive
Virginia Beach, VA 23452-7391
Telephone: (800) 467-8445
Internet: www.stihlusa.com
_____________________________________
 

Seachaser

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Translation: China. But probably under better tolerances and better steel.
Or Ukraine. I heard they had some parts manufactured there.
 

huskihl

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So I replied and asked exactly which country or countries the cylinders and pistons are made in and they just keep side stepping the question either because this guy doesn't know or they are made in china like everything else these days.

Dear Mr. Thompson,

Thank you for contacting STIHL INC. To best answer your questions is that our cylinders and pistons are manufactured with in STIHL at one or more of our world wide manufacturing facilities


Best Regards,
Chad J
Technical Service Representative
---------------------------------------------------------
STIHL INCORPORATED
536 Viking Drive
Virginia Beach, VA 23452-7391
Telephone: (800) 467-8445
Internet: www.stihlusa.com
_____________________________________
Ask them if stihl owns those companies or if they subcontract their cylinder work
 

jacob j.

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Ask them if stihl owns those companies or if they subcontract their cylinder work

I know that Stihl has a facility of their own in China - I think they've had it for at least a little over 30 years.

We talked about that at a dealer meeting many years ago. At that time, engine components for some of the
consumer line were being manufactured at that facility.
 

bertfixessome

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Ask them if stihl owns those companies or if they subcontract their cylinder work
Mao wanted to make China self sufficient as it had been before the West moved in to rape & pillage the country .
HE really did not know how to do it and favoured the collective.
Mao had the aim of a foundry in every village & a pushbike for every household to make China "modern"
His successors were a bit more savy than that and had a long look at how other countries had developed form pesent manual agriculture
Unlike Europe & the Americas, China actually learned from history rather than repeating it .
So from Saudi Arabia they took the philosophy of a 50:50 partnership between any foreign entity that wanted to set up a facility in China.
So while Stihl "ownes" their Chinese factories, they only own 1/2 of all of them.
This prevented the situation of the Phillipines where US businesses set up factories to make stuff to sell back to the USA thus making the population slaves in their own country exporting both the goods & the profits back to the USA ( they learned that from the British East India Co )
It also prevented the Indonesian / Malasia / Burmese situation where the colonial power pulls out and takes all of the technology & expertese with them so sets the country back 50+ years & leaves an unstable political mess behind .
So Stihl has a factory with Stihl on the street signs but they are in partnership with a local company.
Same story with Zama when they moved from Japan to Hong Kong then China mainland .
Where ever possible Chinese factories are fully intergrated so they will have their own foundry on site ( or next door ) feeding castings onto the assembly line as needed .
A system they took from the Japanese factories.
What we forget is for China most of the development was on green field sites so factories are mostly on large plots with room for expansion and space to have a foundry / machining shop / plastic moulding line all directly connected to the assembly line .
Thus the floor stock is virtually nill & the transport costs are virtually nill as the parts are made as needed to fed the line.
That cuts the actual production cost by over 50% ( note not materials cost ) , just the costs of putting the thing together .

The West tried to impliment Just In Time , shoehorned into small factories on unsuitable sites thus requiring lots of small warehouses all along to line with lots of storemen recieving the various parts for that days production .
About the only place that Western countries got JIT to work properly is beer & milk where the bottles / cans are made on site & fed int the filling line as needed .
 

thompsoncustom

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Makes sense with the last email I got from them. I asked about 2 of there pro models the 261 and the new 500i.

Dear Mr Thompson,

Thank you for contacting us at STIHL Customer Service. The cylinder and pistons could be either made in our Germany facility or in our Brazil facility. The MS 500i is made in our Germany plant.



Best Regards,
Chad J
Technical Service Representative
---------------------------------------------------------
STIHL INCORPORATED
536 Viking Drive
Virginia Beach, VA 23452-7391
Telephone: (800) 467-8445
Internet: www.stihlusa.com
 

huskihl

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Old news, really

 

Maintenance Chief

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I seriously doubt it.
While accountants with MBA's continue to run companies into the ground by blindly following what their text book instructed then every part & process that can be outsourced will be outsourced .
Remember they work on the assumption that all of the value is in the product name and all profits are derived from the board room.
As there are a lot of aftermarket Stihl castings originating in Italy & China that is where most of the cast parts would be made .
No foundry is going to the massive expense of making moulds of a part in order to sell 1/2 price aftermarket parts .
Germany achieved their "clean air" objectives by closing near 80% of their foundries & transferring casting production to China and Brazil .
Funny enough that is what the USA has done as well, if you add Mexico to that list .

If you look at what Stihl models have aftermarket parts available that will tell you when they stopped getting them made by Mahle .
Typically the customer ( stihl ) pay for the cost of making the moulds , or it is amortised in the first production contract .
Then when that part is discontinued the foundry will often sell the moulds to a 2nd tier foundry who will make the necessary repairs ( including removing the Stihl name & part number ) then do smaller batches as & when required . Hence genuine OEM after market parts using "original moulds ".
When those moulds become unreliable they get on sold to a third tier foundry and so on and so on .
The casting machines used to do Stihl cylinders would usually have something in the order of 20 to 100 moulds on them ( not necessarily all the same but all the same metal volume ) and when less are required they get fitted up to smaller & smaller casting machines all the way down to single mould machines remembering that a single mould could could produce anything from 1 to 20 castings.
Last year a Foundry in China commissioned the biggest aluminium casting machine in the world
From memory it could cast around 100 tons / hour with a staff of 1 & support staff of 3 , including automatic break out & return of the hot sprues, risers & runners back to the melt pot which saves around 10% of the energy used to remelt it .
Weigh a chain saw cylinder to get an idea of just how many engines that equates to .
I would say that the bulk of 660 AM pistons I've seen are absolutely not cast from any mould that stihl used.
Ring lands in different heights or thickness.
No support wings on the skirts.
Windows are a different shape .
Someone might have the moulds ? Meteor maybe, but the cheaper ones definitely not.
 

bertfixessome

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Not trying to start arguements but I read the Stihl blurb reposted as a lot of PR double talk.
Without having access to actual breakdowns I would imaging what comes out of the Chinese factories would account for well over 50% of the total sales worldwide.
No surprise as you are going to sell a whole lot more $ 200 saws & $ 100 line trimmers than you are going to sell $ 2000 saws & $ 500 line trimmers
And in the next few years battery powered stuff will out sell petrol powered stuff
And the bulk ( by numbers ) will be made in China till China honestly revalues their currency to the level it should be ( around 3 times what it is now ) while only 20 or 30 % of the range are made in China , that would constitute 60+% of total sales.
By & large , Chinese factorys are fully in house laid out on what is called fishbone where a pile of sub assembly , foundry, plastic moulding lines feed in parts they make to the location on the assembly line that they are needed it is megga efficient so knocks the costs down dramatically.
Most of us come from or were trained in the days when machinery was expensive & manpower was cheap.
Those days are gone forever
A modern casting machine will cast the parts, knock them out, trim, return the trimmings to the holding furnces, sample the furnace & make chemical adjustments without a single person interveining.
Those ra castings can then be feed directly into a CNC machine for machining in 5 plains exit it & go into a cleaning machine then an inspection machine then directly to the assembly machine with never a human hand touching it.
These plants are very difficult to build in established industrial areas which is why companies go to China & Brazil where they can get a green field site .
I also noticed they said their German foundry was at the heart of their developement & research.
You don't do that on a 100 head high speed casting machine
You do that on an old obsolete small machine .
I had 4 furnaces in the lab I worked in where we actually remelted samples from the main foundry to make low volume very special alloys and custom solder sticks

As for the 660 AM pistons I will go out on a limb and suggest they were from dies used to make one of the 660 knock offs, or a piston from another cheaper saw that happens to be similar enough to work in a 660
All small 2 strokes are basically the same , inlet in the back, outlet at the front & transfer ports on either side.
And there are only so many combinations of stroke & bore that work
I have VW car pistons in one of my BSA motorcycles because they fit in the hole & are 1/3 the price of the only supplier of exact copies ( dimension wise ) are machined from a forged blank so way too expensive & way over kill for a 10 Hp 80 year old motorcycle
 

Al Smith

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You know I've been constaintly harping you will never know where that so called OEM stuff comes from . Case in point ,long time ago I ordered a set of rebuild gaskets from Caterpillar from a dealer for a 1943 D4 .It took 6 months to get them .Seems they had to get a back log of orders before the supplier in Japan was going to make them .If you think Stihl OEM is expensive try Caterpillar some time .
 
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