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Porting torque vs hp

paragonbuilder

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I think what we are really talking about when we say torque, at least in saws, is the torque band. If you look at the dyno charts from the nov CT gtg, you will see what I mean. Some saws were fast in the wood but you couldn't dog them in. The torque curve was peaky. Others felt unstoppable and the torque curve was very broad but not as high. When I say I like a torquey saw this is what I mean. It is strong from like 8k-11k.


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jmssaws

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The only way to make a gain on any saw is to turn the chain faster than it was before under the same load,does tourqe increase rpm or does rpm increase tourqe?
I understand that cutting huge hard wood requires a different type of saw but to cut huge hard wood faster you have to increase chain speed.

If the saw is turning the chain to fast and it's making dust instead of chips then you need to work on your chain not the saw.

I have a few old long bar tourqe saws here and I can take a 85cc hp saw and beat everyone of them up to a 50" 404
That's the biggest bar I have or I could continue.

When does the tourqe saw overcome the rpm saw? What length bar would I have to run for it to be stronger?

5ft lbs or 42 million ft lbs it still has to turn the chain faster or its just a big heavy slow saw.

When all those saws were ran on the dyno in CT,saws from lots of people who port and there was no earth shattering difference in tourqe between any of the like saws there but some big differences in hp.
 

jmssaws

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I think what we are really talking about when we say torque, at least in saws, is the torque band. If you look at the dyno charts from the nov CT gtg, you will see what I mean. Some saws were fast in the wood but you couldn't dog them in. The torque curve was peaky. Others felt unstoppable and the torque curve was very broad but not as high. When I say I like a torquey saw this is what I mean. It is strong from like 8k-11k.


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Exactly.
2 same saws with the same amount of tourqe but one makes it 2k faster then it's going to feel very different from the other. Run the same bar and chain setup on the 2 and you will get very different results.

This is why comparing ported saws from 2 different porters is impossible to do fairly unless it's a build off where everyone knows exactly what the saw is going to be doing.
 

paragonbuilder

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The only way to make a gain on any saw is to turn the chain faster than it was before under the same load,does tourqe increase rpm or does rpm increase tourqe?
I understand that cutting huge hard wood requires a different type of saw but to cut huge hard wood faster you have to increase chain speed.

If the saw is turning the chain to fast and it's making dust instead of chips then you need to work on your chain not the saw.

I have a few old long bar tourqe saws here and I can take a 85cc hp saw and beat everyone of them up to a 50" 404
That's the biggest bar I have or I could continue.

When does the tourqe saw overcome the rpm saw? What length bar would I have to run for it to be stronger?

5ft lbs or 42 million ft lbs it still has to turn the chain faster or its just a big heavy slow saw.

When all those saws were ran on the dyno in CT,saws from lots of people who port and there was no earth shattering difference in tourqe between any of the like saws there but some big differences in hp.

Jason, I've ran 3 of your saws now, I own 2 of them, and I wouldn't say your saws are "hp saws". They have excellent torque curves, in addition to a much higher chain speed.
They are very fast, but I can pull them down below 8k and they still pull like a freight train. I ran some other saws that revved great but fell on their face under any kind of load. I'm beginning to think maybe it's just a poor porting job, because like you said if you want faster throw a bigger sprocket on.


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wcorey

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IMHO, the biggest problem I always see with these discussions is simply in the terminology.
I know what most people are are meaning to say when they refer to preferring 'more torque' over more hp but it does lead to confusion. As is inevitably then pointed out, torque is inseperable from rpm where hp is concerned, so is meaningless here as a stand alone term.
As Dan and others referred to but didn't go as far as spelling out, the more definitive term would be 'wider power band', as opposed to 'narrower power band'.

Of course who wouldn't want a wider power band if peak hp remains the same but the reality with building motors is that everything is a tradeoff and no matter how well it's done, you can't have it all. So the choice ultimately comes down to more peak hp with narrower pb or less peak hp over a wider range. Either one can be faster depending on circumstanses.

I think of it in terms of simply 'power', where for example a lower peak hp/wider power band can potentially produce the most, assuming that's what's required to stay within the ideal rpm range that's possible to be maintained in whatever particular conditions are at hand.
There's countless examples of this in the racing world with vehicles of every decription...
 

paragonbuilder

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IMHO, the biggest problem I always see with these discussions is simply in the terminology.
I know what most people are are meaning to say when they refer to preferring 'more torque' over more hp but it does lead to confusion. As is inevitably then pointed out, torque is inseperable from rpm where hp is concerned, so is meaningless here as a stand alone term.
As Dan and others referred to but didn't go as far as spelling out, the more definitive term would be 'wider power band', as opposed to 'narrower power band'.

Of course who wouldn't want a wider power band if peak hp remains the same but the reality with building motors is that everything is a tradeoff and no matter how well it's done, you can't have it all. So the choice ultimately comes down to more peak hp with narrower pb or less peak hp over a wider range. Either one can be faster depending on circumstanses.

I think of it in terms of simply 'power', where for example a lower peak hp/wider power band can potentially produce the most, assuming that's what's required to stay within the ideal rpm range that's possible to be maintained in whatever particular conditions are at hand.
There's countless examples of this in the racing world with vehicles of every decription...

Well said Bill!


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I failed to mention in the example I gave earlier why the older slower saw beat the newer faster and larger displacement saws. It wasn't the old one could out cut them by any stretch of the imagination, it was that it kept cutting when the others slowed and died in the cut. The old one kept cutting. These were all stock saws as well. So if torque and HP are a relative thing that can be a high or low in RPM, where is it(torque) in the saw motor? I think everyone here has had or seen a saw that looks and runs good until you stick it in the wood and it pukes all over the place. This is what I think we are trying to avoid whether at 10,000 or 14,000 RPM, a stopped chain cuts no wood. I also think this is relative to stock, modified as well as the ported saws. Example: I rebuilt a saw with a cylinder that was of open port design. The saw was slow but you could literally lean on it all you wanted and not kill it. I have no idea other than the switch from port design why that saw acted the way it did, nor was it my goal to do so, just the way it worked out. I've done just the opposite as well, where if you sneezed while cutting the chain would stop rolling. So obviously the ports do have a direct impact on how a saw acts, question is, what is it about them that makes it go one way or another? I also would like to say thank you to the Saw porters here that answer questions like these to non saw porters like myself. Your level of expertise is truly a treasure here for everyone. Nocking down is easy, lifting up is harder, what you guys do here is amazing. I get a lift from this site on a daily basis.
 
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RIDE-RED 350r

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And then there are examples like this: A Cummins in a brand new Dodge pickup is putting out nearly 400hp now and about 800ft-lbs torque. Many big rigs run 13-15 liter diesels that are putting out 400-500 hp. Now, some uninformed new Dodge diesel customer might mistakenly think he literally has big rig power in his pickup... not so fast their Mr. Fatwallet, that same 400hp Cat C-13 that's making darn near the same HP as your 6.2 Cummins is making in the ballpark of 1500ft-lbs torque, nearly double the torque of your just about 400hp Cummins.

Why is this?? It's always been my thought that the much heavier rotating components in the bigger 13+ liter big rig mill, IE: Crank, flywheel, even pistons, all play a part in making so much more torque while keeping HP lower relatively speaking. I'm sure this is not the sole explanation, but rather a significant part of it.

Taking this back to saws, while I'm sure the weight of the major internals of your typical saw engine doesn't play nearly as large a role in production of torque. I only made the above comparison to illustrate that HP and torque are not necessarily directly related, even when comparing engines of like design. Some great points have been made here, but I think wcorey nailed it. With these little wing-dingers, everything we do is a trade-off to some degree. In larger versions found on snowmobiles, ATV's and dirt bikes I have found that porting layout is MUCH more complex than any saw cylinder I have laid eyes on. Over the years the manufacturers and builders in those industries have come up with quite a few innovations and inventions to help broaden the power curve of the 2-stroke engine and still maintain good peak RPM and HP. Things like R.A.V.E (Rotax Adjustable Variable Exhaust) and other "powervalve" designs that basically give you a variable exhaust port height depending on RPM and engine load, boost ports, pistons with a port on the intake skirt, rotary intake valves, expansion chamber pipes tuned for a specific power curve, and on and on, I'm sure I'm missing a few... Comparatively speaking, a saw really is a one-trick pony when compared to larger powersports oriented 2-stroke mills. Obviously, things like rotary intake valves and variable exhaust valves add alot of bulk to something as small as a saw engine, which is not desirable.

In my rookie opinion, when we build our saws to gain in the area of max RPM, we do in fact pick up some HP and torque, but as wcorey eluded to, the meat of the peak power curve is raised in the RPM range a bit... How much depends on how fast you want it to run at peak. If taken to the extreme, you end up with what's commonly referred to as a "lightswitch" power curve, something frequently said about bike/sled/ATV cylinders that are ported for all out drag racing and hill shooting. Nothing down low and then BAM, you're hangin on for dear life... Obviously in this application, these guys are doing high RPM clutch drops at the launch and the idea is to never even be below where the power comes on when the machine leaves the gate. Pin it, never lift, shift. I would not want a saw that runs like that, not for what I do... But I'm sure there are saw racers out there running basically drag porting, that is where technique and practice come in to keep that thing in the power.

Cool topic! :)
 

RI Chevy

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6 of one, a half dozen of another. lol
 

jmssaws

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A diesel has double tourqe to hp because it has no rpm,a 2 stroke will be the opposite.

I've never ran a saw that wouldn't stall and I've ran some stout ones I think, stalling to me is a chain problem more than a saw problem.

I can put off the roll skip on and make it hard to stall but it aint cutting either.

I've not ran a saw like Dan talked about
I find that a fast saw is fast with any setup. I never pry on one much though I'm more of a let the chain do it kind of guy. Pry on one all day will make you tired and then you'll get hurt.
 

CR500

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A diesel has double tourqe to hp because it has no rpm,a 2 stroke will be the opposite.

I've never ran a saw that wouldn't stall and I've ran some stout ones I think, stalling to me is a chain problem more than a saw problem.

I can put off the roll skip on and make it hard to stall but it aint cutting either.

I've not ran a saw like Dan talked about
I find that a fast saw is fast with any setup. I never pry on one much though I'm more of a let the chain do it kind of guy. Pry on one all day will make you tired and then you'll get hurt.
Also a heavy handed operator can make some saws seem slower.

As for Skip chain. I mostly run it on 24-above.

I do like Semi skip more in those lengths though
 

RIDE-RED 350r

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A diesel has double tourqe to hp because it has no rpm,a 2 stroke will be the opposite.

True, but that's only part of it and really an effect of how diesel burns much differently (more slowly) than gasoline, which happens to be beneficial for building engines designed to work and pull hard, especially with today's diesel engines.
 

jmssaws

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True, but that's only part of it and really an effect of how diesel burns much differently (more slowly) than gasoline, which happens to be beneficial for building engines designed to work and pull hard, especially with today's diesel engines.
A diesel is tourqe but a 2 stroke is hp
A diesel doesn't need rpm to make power but it's the opposite with a saw.

Even if you gain no power porting but you move the exact same power up 2k you've made a faster stronger saw.
 

jmssaws

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Also a heavy handed operator can make some saws seem slower.

As for Skip chain. I mostly run it on 24-above.

I do like Semi skip more in those lengths though
Beautiful saws,especially the 064.
I forgot to tell you that
 
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