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Part Five: Ignition Timing

mrxlh

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I would say that not having to have a 12volt battery to hook to is pretty handy on this one.
They are super handy and super tough, I have had mine for close to 20 years. I used it mostly for large bore 2 and 4 stroke natural gas engines that turn no more than 1800RPM, I had no idea it was accurate to 14K. I figured most saw guys already have a dedicated tach, so something under $100 that was accurate and hassle free would be a no brainer. Oh and they are bright too…
 

Stump Shot

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They are super handy and super tough, I have had mine for close to 20 years. I used it mostly for large bore 2 and 4 stroke natural gas engines that turn no more than 1800RPM, I had no idea it was accurate to 14K. I figured most saw guys already have a dedicated tach, so something under $100 that was accurate and hassle free would be a no brainer. Oh and they are bright too…

I have some older electronics from that company, good stuff. :thumbsup:
 

Lauzon Small Engine

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New member here, enjoyed reading this Ignition Timing thread, thanks to all the contributors.

I noticed in several YouTube timing videos posted with later model Stihls they showed the ignition timing around 16 BTDC. Most contributors stated advancing the ignition timing improved the saw's performance. This seems logical compared to the older McCulloch and Homelite saws I have worked on where the ignition timing was around 26 BTDC.

My question is: why do modern Stihls have such lower ignition timing at full throttle, besides for easier starting? I'm wondering if it's emission concerns...
 

MustangMike

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Likely emissions and with a stock engine you do not need as much timing advance as a modified engine does.

Everything from the muffler and air filter to the ports and their timing will influence this.

Back in the day (when cars were simple) the first thing you would do is put low restriction mufflers on, a low restriction air filter, and advance the timing and you would get a good bump in performance.
 

Al Smith

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With more modern computer controlled automobile engines the spark for each cylinder can change twenty times a second plus also be the fuel injector pulse rate .It's complicated as I assume are chainsaws etc .Being a restorer /collector it's doubtful I'll ever encounter any of that rocket science .Because in my mindset anything under 20 years old is new .Those I do pretty good at while some do not .Fact in the wind is attempting to tweak a lowly old Mac 10-10 to make a showing cutting 9 inch cants .I'll never know if I never try .
 

Lauzon Small Engine

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I realize this is an old thread, but it has my curiosity, so I will share some of my past experience and thoughts regarding ignition timing and maybe it might help someone. Please bare with me as I explain the engine build and thought process as it might shed some light on the ignition timing.

In 1981, just out of high school, I purchased a go-kart with a 100cc McCulloch 91-B1 that mainly ran on methanol. Eventually, I was ready to build an engine from scratch and asked "Is it better to build a top end engine or bottom end?" A driver told me he didn't think it mattered as long as whatever I built it needed to have a lot of it. I purchased a new engine block from the local kart shop that was cheap. Later I learned nobody wanted it because the exhaust port height was low on the cylinder wall and the transfer ports were high resulting in less blowdown time before the transfer ports opened. Basically, this engine was not going to rev. I decided to press on and build it with as much bottom end as possible.

I purchased the longest legal stroke crankshaft and longest connecting rod I could find. I then reworked the ports all "wrong". I did not raise the exhaust port to gain blowdown time, instead I left it low so I had a longer power stroke than my competitors and more compression. I did widen the exhaust port to the maximum legal dimension. I decked the block and reworked the cylinder head for more compression. I used the thickest stuffer plate gasket I could find when everyone else was running the thinnest. Ignition timing was set to 28 degrees BTDC, 2 degrees above stock setting due to methanol fuel.

Once assembled I found the engine difficult to snap over due to high compression. When I checked the compression with a top of the line Snap-On 0-250 psi gauge tester it pegged the needle and broke the schrader valve, never learned what the actual compression was.

I took the engine to a fast 1/5 mile dirt oval, installed a rear axle sprocket 1 tooth smaller than usual and the engine was a dog, barely mid pack. Wondering if I was past the powerband I dropped a tooth on the rear sprocket, then another, this did nothing. Out of desperation I dropped 2 more teeth and it started to come alive.

Over the next few weeks I focused on ignition timing and surprisingly every time I backed the timing off it got faster. The improvements flattened out at 22 degrees BTDC so I left it there, about 6 degrees less than everyone else. As I experimented with ignition timing and expansion chamber length I was able to drop teeth on the rear axle sprocket until I stopped about 7 teeth smaller than was typical. By now the engine was unbeatable, nobody was even close.

Back to ignition timing, my thoughts are your goal should always be to have an engine with as little ignition advance as possible. The more spark advance you have the more the piston is being fought against as it approaches TDC during compression. I think you want to improve the fuel burn rate by having a good port design that gives a well mixed fuel/air ratio which needs less spark advance. Increasing the compression will result in a tighter packed fuel/air charge which will burn faster and need less spark advance. Optimizing the expansion chamber length for your powerband will also give a denser fuel/air charge. I just think the more variables that you can optimize in your engine the less spark advance it should need, resulting in less opposition as the piston approaches TDC on the compression stroke and more power.

As a side note I also built another 100cc McCulloch for road courses that had a higher exhaust port and lower transfer ports, thus more blowdown time. It revved higher and had a broader powerband and won a lot of big races. It ran best with about 24 - 25 degrees spark advance.

I now find myself rebuilding Stihl chainsaws and being asked for a little more power, so I've been experimenting gradually with muffler mods that have shown improvements. This thread leaves me thinking it's time I looked at ignition timing because it sounds like the factory isn't putting enough advance in.

I hope my experience and thoughts might help someone think their way thru their next project and I welcome any input as I have a lot to learn.
 

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I realize this is an old thread, but it has my curiosity, so I will share some of my past experience and thoughts regarding ignition timing and maybe it might help someone. Please bare with me as I explain the engine build and thought process as it might shed some light on the ignition timing.

In 1981, just out of high school, I purchased a go-kart with a 100cc McCulloch 91-B1 that mainly ran on methanol. Eventually, I was ready to build an engine from scratch and asked "Is it better to build a top end engine or bottom end?" A driver told me he didn't think it mattered as long as whatever I built it needed to have a lot of it. I purchased a new engine block from the local kart shop that was cheap. Later I learned nobody wanted it because the exhaust port height was low on the cylinder wall and the transfer ports were high resulting in less blowdown time before the transfer ports opened. Basically, this engine was not going to rev. I decided to press on and build it with as much bottom end as possible.

I purchased the longest legal stroke crankshaft and longest connecting rod I could find. I then reworked the ports all "wrong". I did not raise the exhaust port to gain blowdown time, instead I left it low so I had a longer power stroke than my competitors and more compression. I did widen the exhaust port to the maximum legal dimension. I decked the block and reworked the cylinder head for more compression. I used the thickest stuffer plate gasket I could find when everyone else was running the thinnest. Ignition timing was set to 28 degrees BTDC, 2 degrees above stock setting due to methanol fuel.

Once assembled I found the engine difficult to snap over due to high compression. When I checked the compression with a top of the line Snap-On 0-250 psi gauge tester it pegged the needle and broke the schrader valve, never learned what the actual compression was.

I took the engine to a fast 1/5 mile dirt oval, installed a rear axle sprocket 1 tooth smaller than usual and the engine was a dog, barely mid pack. Wondering if I was past the powerband I dropped a tooth on the rear sprocket, then another, this did nothing. Out of desperation I dropped 2 more teeth and it started to come alive.

Over the next few weeks I focused on ignition timing and surprisingly every time I backed the timing off it got faster. The improvements flattened out at 22 degrees BTDC so I left it there, about 6 degrees less than everyone else. As I experimented with ignition timing and expansion chamber length I was able to drop teeth on the rear axle sprocket until I stopped about 7 teeth smaller than was typical. By now the engine was unbeatable, nobody was even close.

Back to ignition timing, my thoughts are your goal should always be to have an engine with as little ignition advance as possible. The more spark advance you have the more the piston is being fought against as it approaches TDC during compression. I think you want to improve the fuel burn rate by having a good port design that gives a well mixed fuel/air ratio which needs less spark advance. Increasing the compression will result in a tighter packed fuel/air charge which will burn faster and need less spark advance. Optimizing the expansion chamber length for your powerband will also give a denser fuel/air charge. I just think the more variables that you can optimize in your engine the less spark advance it should need, resulting in less opposition as the piston approaches TDC on the compression stroke and more power.

As a side note I also built another 100cc McCulloch for road courses that had a higher exhaust port and lower transfer ports, thus more blowdown time. It revved higher and had a broader powerband and won a lot of big races. It ran best with about 24 - 25 degrees spark advance.

I now find myself rebuilding Stihl chainsaws and being asked for a little more power, so I've been experimenting gradually with muffler mods that have shown improvements. This thread leaves me thinking it's time I looked at ignition timing because it sounds like the factory isn't putting enough advance in.

I hope my experience and thoughts might help someone think their way thru their next project and I welcome any input as I have a lot to learn.

Sorry to respond to an old post.

What you say about the relationship of compression and ignition is new to me and makes sense. I mostly think of RPM determining ignition timing.

As far as longer blowdown creating more rev, I haven’t really noticed a direct relationship. Most of my faster saws have pretty short blowdown. Blowdown is a funny thing though. It almost needs it’s own discussion.
 

Newdave

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Yeah, too easy! There's some good information in there about saw ignition systems. I never knew how the flywheel was constructed with the magnet. The document cleared that up.

It might be simpler to move the magnet on the flywheel instead ? scratch that idea, magnets should stay fixed lest we have one let go at 15000 rpm = bad day
 

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And the bad side of advance timing? Extra heat ?
 

Motorka

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Have one h55 with 6degres timing advance mm and it really likes it.

Plan was to sell it, but i bought another one ... i liked it a lot now.
 
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MustangMike

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Taking .020 off the key of a MS 440 or MS460 provided about a 6* advance, and usually improved performance in conjunction with other modifications (including a muffler mod).

Some folks advanced it much more, but I never saw any real benefit to a woods port saw.
 

00wyk

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Yes, but one or more pulls ain't gonna hurt ya so long as it's not sumfin like a 395 :)
And, geziz, the sound of a well advanced chainsaw...

Here's a modded 4300 AKA Dolmar 420 with about as much timing as I dared:

 
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