MS462C - 572XP Comparison

[Stihl working Hard]

View attachment 134180

Massive one this time must be the new truck forum

 

[Cobby08]

2005 4x4 regular cab 2500 with an NV-4500.

Yes.

It started life as an auto, but the previous owner bought a conversion kit 5k miles ago & now it’s a 5 speed.

I’ll get pics.

Is it stock? Just curious how the 4500 handles the torque. I'm not 100% up to snuff with the NV's but isn't the 4500 lighter built than say the 5500?

Having said that I guess we had a NV-4500H (think that was what it was anywhoser) in our 3500 cheby with the 8.1 in it. Great flatbed truck for us. Trans lasted to 100,000 then between the clutch being spanked and the MASSSSSSSIVE difference in the 2nd to 3rd shift you had to wind it the hell out in 2nd and grab third before she falls on its face.

 

[sawfun]

The big block M-motor was particularly bad in the early 80's. Such a huge motor, so much gas and very little POWA. My boss had an '81 Ford 1-ton dually with a 400M for hauling concrete forms and a Bobcat. It was reliable, I gotta say that. Damn thing fired even when it was -20F in Wyoming. But, you could get out and run beside it going up a hill. It was gutless. Windsor motors are much easier to get power from, IMO. If I were gonna build one for a hoopty of mine, I'd go with a bored and stroked 351W any day of the week.

Just for comparison....the '82 Suzuki Samurai came with a 1.0L engine that had max HP of 52. The 400M was like 159 HP at 6.6L. If the Suzuki was 6.6L, it be putting out close to 350HP and 350ft lb. of torque. So, cube for cube, the Zuki was putting out double the HP and the same torque as the 400M.

I love me some Fords, but damn, sometimes I'm scratching my head and saying "WTF were they selling us"?

The lowered compression of the early 70's along with poor cam profiles really ruined what had been, good engines. 1970 was the last of the 10:1 GM's, 1971 was it for the Ford's. I had a 215 horse 454 waggon, and a,145 horse 350 4 barrel Blazer. Yes the cylinder head profiles were a bit worse, but not that much. You can thank the EPA and ignorant enginnering for this. As long as we had good quality higher octane gas, some of those old sloppy big V8 engines got decent fuel economy when set up properly. Higher compression is the key. I got 18 mpg from my built 1968 396 Camaro, 20 mpg on the highway, from my 1965 400 hp 409 Impalla. My buddies 1965 mustang got 20 mpg with a built 351 Windsor. Though it needed water injection, it was a 12 second car, back in the early 80's. I knew a couple of guys with blown small blocks getting in the teens for milage. one was a 10 second 66 Nova, the other was a lightweight 9 second T bucket roadster. This was the early 80's with little high tech , and the last of the decent gas. Just efficient combos out of sloppy engines. A case of hotrodders vs the engineering of those times governed by our favorite EPA.

 

[AlfA01]

The lowered compression of the early 70's along with poor cam profiles really ruined what had been, good engines. 1970 was the last of the 10:1 GM's, 1971 was it for the Ford's. I had a 215 horse 454 waggon, and a,145 horse 350 4 barrel Blazer. Yes the cylinder head profiles were a bit worse, but not that much. You can thank the EPA and ignorant enginnering for this. As long as we had good quality higher octane gas, some of those old sloppy big V8 engines got decent fuel economy when set up properly. Higher compression is the key. I got 18 mpg from my built 1968 396 Camaro, 20 mpg on the highway, from my 1965 400 hp 409 Impalla. My buddies 1965 mustang got 20 mpg with a built 351 Windsor. Though it needed water injection, it was a 12 second car, back in the early 80's. I knew a couple of guys with blown small blocks getting in the teens for milage. one was a 10 second 66 Nova, the other was a lightweight 9 second T bucket roadster. This was the early 80's with little high tech , and the last of the decent gas. Just efficient combos out of sloppy engines. A case of hotrodders vs the engineering of those times governed by our favorite EPA.

I bought one of these for $200 in high school. It ran but a rod was knocking. Did a full restore on it and sold it when I joined the military about 5-years later. 1966 Bronc with 289 V-8 and it got high teens for mileage if you drove it right. Only car I regret selling!

I gotta call my mom and see if she's got my pics of that thing....

 

[Mastermind]

Good stuff men.

 

[Stump Shot]

The big block M-motor was particularly bad in the early 80's. Such a huge motor, so much gas and very little POWA. My boss had an '81 Ford 1-ton dually with a 400M for hauling concrete forms and a Bobcat. It was reliable, I gotta say that. Damn thing fired even when it was -20F in Wyoming. But, you could get out and run beside it going up a hill. It was gutless. Windsor motors are much easier to get power from, IMO. If I were gonna build one for a hoopty of mine, I'd go with a bored and stroked 351W any day of the week.

Just for comparison....the '82 Suzuki Samurai came with a 1.0L engine that had max HP of 52. The 400M was like 159 HP at 6.6L. If the Suzuki was 6.6L, it be putting out close to 350HP and 350ft lb. of torque. So, cube for cube, the Zuki was putting out double the HP and the same torque as the 400M.

I love me some Fords, but damn, sometimes I'm scratching my head and saying "WTF were they selling us"?

Coming of driving age in the early eighty's it was fairly apparent to us that we got the shaft when it came to powerful automobiles. The answer however was all around us. We(friends and I) would buy up old rusted out cars from the late sixty's and early seventy's and pull out that big block and stuff it into whatever mid seventies and up car we could get our hands on. At first this was a pretty straightforward and easy thing to do, then at some point what was found didn't necessarily match up with what you had, so a buddy had some 472 and 500 ci Cadillac powered trucks, I even had and Oldsmobile powered Ford at one time. Biggest meant best and the 440's, 460's, 454's and 455's all reigned supreme on the road. But the one I got the liking to for my trucks was a 1970 390 ci FE that went into every four speed Ford I had except for this last one. It dropped in with ease and was right at home.
Luckily for us the newer vehicles had better brakes and handled a bit better than the ones that the donor engines came from and we survived all our shenanigans. The true muscle car era kids didn't all fair as well in this respect as some left us too early in life. Having fulfilled my need for speed early in life I am well happy to put around like the old fart I am with my 360 ci powered truck that will pull the moon if asked to.
As for the 351M-400 they have been long forgotten, as every one I saw nearing the 100,000 mile mark the mains were nocking and they went straight to the junk man as just about anything else was better in it's place in every respect. Much like the Chevrolet 307, they were just no good. And a long long list could be made of the turds coming from every maker at the time, the 260 Olds comes to mind, looks like a 350 and it ends there.
We had fun and I wouldn't change a thing, was a great time to be growing up and it all went away anyway, melted down and reconstituted into more crap, we don't really want.

 

[Mastermind]

Great post Steveo.

 

[hseII]

The tan one with a Cummins is a 5 ton requiring a CDL, and gets 4 - 5 mpg as it has the big 855 cube semi truck engine. Not a deuce and a half I'm afraid, a mite, damn big mite, bigger but had power steering. A deuce weighs just over 13k lbs, the 5 tons weigh 22k lbs.

I typed 5 ton & erased it.

That’s some sort of M900 series.

It doesn’t look like the M800 series dump we have.

 

[hseII]

Is it stock? Just curious how the 4500 handles the torque. I'm not 100% up to snuff with the NV's but isn't the 4500 lighter built than say the 5500?

Having said that I guess we had a NV-4500H (think that was what it was anywhoser) in our 3500 cheby with the 8.1 in it. Great flatbed truck for us. Trans lasted to 100,000 then between the clutch being spanked and the MASSSSSSSIVE difference in the 2nd to 3rd shift you had to wind it the hell out in 2nd and grab third before she falls on its face.

NV stands for New Venture between the GM Muncie & Chrysler’s transmission division.

They were the same trans except for the input shafts.

It’s good for 465 ft lbs according to them, but with the South Bend Clutch is supposedly good for more.

This was the trans for the 2nd gen Dodges till the H.O. & the 6 speed 5600 which split 2nd & 3rd, as you So astutely noted needed to be done.

The 5600 was more $$ when the guy did this.

 

[hseII]

lucky on the 5spd



Dumpbed FTW!

I honestly wish he’d left it as it was.

Jeff Garmon will rebuild the old auto & one day it will be back in that truck.

It came with.

 

[sawfun]

The 70's and 80's gas crisis's made for dirt cheap big block cars and trucks. Some of us saw that as the upside of the long gas lines.

 

[Lightning Performance]

Knowing me.......Bubba's old truck will likely be LS powered if the right bellhousing can be found.

Look me up when you get there. I enjoy modern swaps.

 

[Stump Shot]

Great post Steveo.

Here's a greater one...
Having done all that and gone NASCAR fast on the highway where the front tires no longer contacted the road. I wouldn't give a 16YO kid a big block fuel injected whiz bang motor for anything but a full on purpose built drag car for the strip only. Cause I don't care if it's a car or a truck, give a kid 450hp and he'll try and use every last one of them. My best advice I can give is you and Bubba have a good time building that old FE whatever it is into a respectable truck motor and Bubba will have all the old school street cred he can get and live to tell about it. Just paint it up real nice and make it sound good, the girls like that and when they slide over to the middle, that's what it's all about anyway.

 

[chipper1]

Do you know where he was stationed? I can call the US Embassy. I used to be attached with the Embassy when I was stationed here.

Actually, I got an email from them regarding the fires. They are taking calls for assistance of US Citizens.

Thanks for the PM.

 

[Lightning Performance]

13mpg is dang good!

My 87' 350 Crew 7.3T auto was right around 15 mpg empty or dragging tree trunks on the trailer. Bone stock 200+k.

 

[Dub11]

The lowered compression of the early 70's along with poor cam profiles really ruined what had been, good engines. 1970 was the last of the 10:1 GM's, 1971 was it for the Ford's. I had a 215 horse 454 waggon, and a,145 horse 350 4 barrel Blazer. Yes the cylinder head profiles were a bit worse, but not that much. You can thank the EPA and ignorant enginnering for this. As long as we had good quality higher octane gas, some of those old sloppy big V8 engines got decent fuel economy when set up properly. Higher compression is the key. I got 18 mpg from my built 1968 396 Camaro, 20 mpg on the highway, from my 1965 400 hp 409 Impalla. My buddies 1965 mustang got 20 mpg with a built 351 Windsor. Though it needed water injection, it was a 12 second car, back in the early 80's. I knew a couple of guys with blown small blocks getting in the teens for milage. one was a 10 second 66 Nova, the other was a lightweight 9 second T bucket roadster. This was the early 80's with little high tech , and the last of the decent gas. Just efficient combos out of sloppy engines. A case of hotrodders vs the engineering of those times governed by our favorite EPA.

What was the CR on that 396?

Coming of driving age in the early eighty's it was fairly apparent to us that we got the shaft when it came to powerful automobiles. The answer however was all around us. We(friends and I) would buy up old rusted out cars from the late sixty's and early seventy's and pull out that big block and stuff it into whatever mid seventies and up car we could get our hands on. At first this was a pretty straightforward and easy thing to do, then at some point what was found didn't necessarily match up with what you had, so a buddy had some 472 and 500 ci Cadillac powered trucks, I even had and Oldsmobile powered Ford at one time. Biggest meant best and the 440's, 460's, 454's and 455's all reigned supreme on the road. But the one I got the liking to for my trucks was a 1970 390 ci FE that went into every four speed Ford I had except for this last one. It dropped in with ease and was right at home.
Luckily for us the newer vehicles had better brakes and handled a bit better than the ones that the donor engines came from and we survived all our shenanigans. The true muscle car era kids didn't all fair as well in this respect as some left us too early in life. Having fulfilled my need for speed early in life I am well happy to put around like the old fart I am with my 360 ci powered truck that will pull the moon if asked to.
As for the 351M-400 they have been long forgotten, as every one I saw nearing the 100,000 mile mark the mains were nocking and they went straight to the junk man as just about anything else was better in it's place in every respect. Much like the Chevrolet 307, they were just no good. And a long long list could be made of the turds coming from every maker at the time, the 260 Olds comes to mind, looks like a 350 and it ends there.
We had fun and I wouldn't change a thing, was a great time to be growing up and it all went away anyway, melted down and reconstituted into more crap, we don't really want.

Really you got the shaft in the 80s? Pfft. Try coming up in the 90s, you yahoos jacked up all the good old car prices and all that was left was Honda and *s-word.

Here's a greater one...
Having done all that and gone NASCAR fast on the highway where the front tires no longer contacted the road. I wouldn't give a 16YO kid a big block fuel injected whiz bang motor for anything but a full on purpose built drag car for the strip only. Cause I don't care if it's a car or a truck, give a kid 450hp and he'll try and use every last one of them. My best advice I can give is you and Bubba have a good time building that old FE whatever it is into a respectable truck motor and Bubba will have all the old school street cred he can get and live to tell about it. Just paint it up real nice and make it sound good, the girls like that and when they slide over to the middle, that's what it's all about anyway.

Dam Steve trying to make ol Randy a great grandpa?

 

[Bigmac]

Coming of driving age in the early eighty's it was fairly apparent to us that we got the shaft when it came to powerful automobiles. The answer however was all around us. We(friends and I) would buy up old rusted out cars from the late sixty's and early seventy's and pull out that big block and stuff it into whatever mid seventies and up car we could get our hands on. At first this was a pretty straightforward and easy thing to do, then at some point what was found didn't necessarily match up with what you had, so a buddy had some 472 and 500 ci Cadillac powered trucks, I even had and Oldsmobile powered Ford at one time. Biggest meant best and the 440's, 460's, 454's and 455's all reigned supreme on the road. But the one I got the liking to for my trucks was a 1970 390 ci FE that went into every four speed Ford I had except for this last one. It dropped in with ease and was right at home.
Luckily for us the newer vehicles had better brakes and handled a bit better than the ones that the donor engines came from and we survived all our shenanigans. The true muscle car era kids didn't all fair as well in this respect as some left us too early in life. Having fulfilled my need for speed early in life I am well happy to put around like the old fart I am with my 360 ci powered truck that will pull the moon if asked to.
As for the 351M-400 they have been long forgotten, as every one I saw nearing the 100,000 mile mark the mains were nocking and they went straight to the junk man as just about anything else was better in it's place in every respect. Much like the Chevrolet 307, they were just no good. And a long long list could be made of the turds coming from every maker at the time, the 260 Olds comes to mind, looks like a 350 and it ends there.
We had fun and I wouldn't change a thing, was a great time to be growing up and it all went away anyway, melted down and reconstituted into more crap, we don't really want.

Good post! I messed around with a 307, took the 76cc chamber head off and put 58cc ho 305 heads on with some clean up porting and z28 Valve springs, and a solid lifter cam, it was a great motor for $400 total investment! Lol it made peak power at 6k and had a flat torque curve, it was fun in a 3000 pound car and got 18-20 mpg, it actually put in on the dyno jut to see, it made 260hp and 265lb to the wheel.

 

[cgraham1]

Is it stock? Just curious how the 4500 handles the torque. I'm not 100% up to snuff with the NV's but isn't the 4500 lighter built than say the 5500?

Having said that I guess we had a NV-4500H (think that was what it was anywhoser) in our 3500 cheby with the 8.1 in it. Great flatbed truck for us. Trans lasted to 100,000 then between the clutch being spanked and the MASSSSSSSIVE difference in the 2nd to 3rd shift you had to wind it the hell out in 2nd and grab third before she falls on its face.

GM called it the MT-8, but it’s the same trans as the NV4500 found in the Rams 94-03 (maybe)... not sure when they quit using them. There were some slight variations.

NV stands for New Venture between the GM Muncie & Chrysler’s transmission division.

They were the same trans except for the input shafts.

It’s good for 465 ft lbs according to them, but with the South Bend Clutch is supposedly good for more.

This was the trans for the 2nd gen Dodges till the H.O. & the 6 speed 5600 which split 2nd & 3rd, as you So astutely noted needed to be done.

The 5600 was more $$ when the guy did this.

The NV4500 was geared a lot like the older four speeds, but with an overdrive. The earlier versions 92-94/95 (GM) Came with a 6:34 1st gear and wider gaps between the gears, the later (96-up GM & all Dodge) had the 5:61 1st gear with smaller gaps between gears. I have a later version with a 23 spline output (came in 2500 Rams with the V8) which will bolt right up to my Dana 300 without an adapter.

My Dodge has the G56, and it is geared really nicely for towing... not as robust as the 5600, but plenty adequate for what I do. The stock clutches are junk, though. I swapped mine for a South Bend and it’s been great. I just wish the OD ratio was higher, because it really screams going down the freeway at 85.

 

[Stump Shot]

What was the CR on that 396?



Really you got the shaft in the 80s? Pfft. Try coming up in the 90s, you yahoos jacked up all the good old car prices and all that was left was Honda and *s-word.



Dam Steve trying to make ol Randy a great grandpa?

Not me, I jacked everything straight to the junkyard by the time I was done with it.

And yes reality is a downer.

 

[Lightning Performance]

Hey, those 307's were just fine. It's an under-bored 327 with a cast crank. Good base line block to build class limited cubes motors.
My 305 repowered 307y 83 Olds Cutlass got 18mpg with a 3.08 rear out back and T350 non C trans. No stall speed but straight test pipe and muffler delete. Towed a 16' aluminum boat and ran great. Dished piston 9-1 motor with a 350 cam and aluminum Canadian 2bl intake. One inch taller than an iron one including the plenum floor. They also worked great on the street stocks.
All through the eighties and nineties those Caddy motors went in trucks for wheeling. You guys remember when it was a big deal to able to buy the new, at that time, Caddy flywheel to build a stick setup?

All those motors stump mentioned and a few AMC BB tossed in with the Chevy vs Ford vs Chrysler crowd kept it interesting. Remember those 413's 403's and other sorted oddball AMC, Pontiac and Dodge goods for swaps? We had guys with 305 76' F100 pickups. My cousin had a BB Pontiac in a 7x' Dodge pu. Another had a 350 Chevy in a 65' F100. My 77'/68' Ford resto wheeler had custom mounts for the odd 351C in it.

The best truck was the 68' Powa Wagon Tow truck Started out with a 63' frame and three quarter ton running gear. It was all upgraded to 68' drive line later and went from 88's to 11's. The electric 8K Ramsey winch never left her or the divorced case stick six. That truck made a lot of money, did a *s-word load of recovery work and turned a lot of heads in forest green metallic, pinstriped up and wagon whites with red/blue stripes around.

My favorite is still my 78' Silverado stick pu. Copper w/tan corduroy interior. Tac, gauges and chrome sticks. It would never out run or out handle my 97' but I wish I was still driving it. My favorite truck I ever owned. Never had a 65-6' short bed Chevy 4x4.