ms 461 woods port race thing

[drf256]

So you’re reducing primary pressure?

Guess there’s many ways to skin a cat. I see it in reverse, but you’ve got 10 times the know how.

I see less overall transfer flow and lazy primary flow, with possible Ex causing a Venturi effect, opening the secondary’s even earlier.

I wonder if a small nip in the Ex roof wouldn’t change the flow out of the port.

 

[drf256]

The fact that you actually give a shít speaks in volumes.

I hope you other guys are seeing what’s happening here. 99% of builders woulda been at “Here’s your saw” about 10 steps ago.

Great job Scott.

 

[tree monkey]

A little JB and an hour on top of the wood stove with may answer these questions.

Intriguing stuff. Can’t wait to see what you figure out here.

gotta sleep sometime, epoxy then

Wouldn’t venting the secondaries later, not earlier, give you more initial pressure in the mains?

Am I seeing this backwards?

reducing the pressure in the primaries might reduce the turbulence

beets me, that's why we test, right

 

[paragonbuilder]

I was thinking to reduce it or make em flat.

Ok, I read you backwards...

 

[tree monkey]

Ok, I read you backwards...

better then inside out

 

[paragonbuilder]

Man it gets really hard to hear the 4stroking up that high... that last video I couldn’t hear any when you checked tune

 

[XP_Slinger]

Is it possible that grinding those slopped reliefs in the piston to change timing is persuading the transfer charge to flow a little more upward on initial entry? As you guys have stated, angles are crucial so maybe that angle on the piston is telling a different story than a flat piston would. Trying to consider all variables that could affect your wash pattern.

I’ve said it many times already, but thanks for this thread. It’s a lot of work to perform this R&D AND share it with us in a thread.

 

[drf256]

Man it gets really hard to hear the 4stroking up that high... that last video I couldn’t hear any when you checked tune

Agree Dan.

In first vid, I saw the tach keep climbing. The way my saws do when they drain the metering area and it can’t fill fast enough.

Saws generally sound fatter to me in vids than in person. Kinda like wimmins.

I thought it sounded lean.

 

[drf256]

Is it possible that grinding those slopped reliefs in the piston to change timing is persuading the transfer charge to flow a little more upward on initial entry? As you guys have stated, angles are crucial so maybe that angle on the piston is telling a different story than a flat piston would. Trying to consider all variables that could affect your wash pattern.

I’ve said it many times already, but thanks for this thread. It’s a lot of work to perform this R&D AND share it with us in a thread.

That piston is moving, so I’m not sure that anything other than the actual area by the rim matters at all.

Big issue is that we tend to see a saw working one cycle at a time. In reality, it’s an entire dynamic flow. At 16k, those transfers are just flowing. I know there’s data showing backwards movement each stroke in them, but I find that hard to believe.

Every time we make a change, that entire swirling fiery cloud in that cylinder changes shape.

Friggen cool stuff.

The fun for me is the search for the answer. If someone knew it, I’m not sure I’d wanna know. The whole thing would get boring.

 

[paragonbuilder]

Is it possible that grinding those slopped reliefs in the piston to change timing is persuading the transfer charge to flow a little more upward on initial entry? As you guys have stated, angles are crucial so maybe that angle on the piston is telling a different story than a flat piston would. Trying to consider all variables that could affect your wash pattern.

I’ve said it many times already, but thanks for this thread. It’s a lot of work to perform this R&D AND share it with us in a thread.

I like how your thinking!
Yep, it changes flow a bit. But it gets you close. Only other way is to go til it’s too far and toss the cylinder and start with a fresh one.
But the last piston he ran was the exhaust cutout, and the primaries were still lazy. Piston was flat everywhere else.

 

[Deets066]

Which oil are u using that’s giving wash pattern so fast?

I use Motul 800. No wash after a few tanks, none.

I stopped using Motul just for that reason. It doesn't burn completely, you won't have any carbon or wash. It seemed to lubricate well but your losing power because it's not burning

 

[Fruecrue]

View attachment 106784

I made a port map that I used to mark the port locations onto the piston. mark to ex port on the piston while on the saw to get it oriented

Scott, can we get a measurement?

 

[XP_Slinger]

That piston is moving, so I’m not sure that anything other than the actual area by the rim matters at all.

Big issue is that we tend to see a saw working one cycle at a time. In reality, it’s an entire dynamic flow. At 16k, those transfers are just flowing. I know there’s data showing backwards movement each stroke in them, but I find that hard to believe.

Every time we make a change, that entire swirling fiery cloud in that cylinder changes shape.

Friggen cool stuff.

The fun for me is the search for the answer. If someone knew it, I’m not sure I’d wanna know. The whole thing would get boring.

I’m one of those that sees everything as individual events, in my mind they have to happen that way but at ridiculous speeds. I see what you’re saying, but I just don’t see the transfers as just flowing even at that rpm. That’s why you’re a pro and I’m not yet. This is very fun and interesting stuff and I agree that if someone knew all the answers it wouldn’t be fun anymore.

Getting this lazy transfer entry thing sorted out is tricky business. Could be lots of things as has been discussed.

 

[tree monkey]

Scott, can we get a measurement?
View attachment 106796

 

[tree monkey]

That piston is moving, so I’m not sure that anything other than the actual area by the rim matters at all.

Big issue is that we tend to see a saw working one cycle at a time. In reality, it’s an entire dynamic flow. At 16k, those transfers are just flowing. I know there’s data showing backwards movement each stroke in them, but I find that hard to believe.

Every time we make a change, that entire swirling fiery cloud in that cylinder changes shape.

Friggen cool stuff.

The fun for me is the search for the answer. If someone knew it, I’m not sure I’d wanna know. The whole thing would get boring.

transfers in a strato have to flow both ways, it's part of the intake

 

[XP_Slinger]

Is there anything inside the primary transfer passage on the exhaust side causing turbulence that’s interrupting linear flow? Crazy how that charge is walking right out the exhaust.

Hope I’m not bothering anyone with my grade school line of thinking amongst pros.

 

[tree monkey]

I don't see the port as lazy, I see it as turbulent. there is something causing if to flow the wrong way.

 

[tree monkey]

see what happens when we post at the same time. lol

 

[drf256]

I’m one of those that sees everything as individual events, in my mind they have to happen that way but at ridiculous speeds. I see what you’re saying, but I just don’t see the transfers as just flowing even at that rpm. That’s why you’re a pro and I’m not yet. This is very fun and interesting stuff and I agree that if someone knew all the answers it wouldn’t be fun anymore.

Getting this lazy transfer entry thing sorted out is tricky business. Could be lots of things as has been discussed.

Thanks for the compliment, but there’s nothing that makes me a pro, any more than you.

 

[XP_Slinger]

see what happens when we post at the same time. lol

Lol! Glad I could clutter the thread by being redundant