How to square file

[Willard]

Moparmyway, looks like a .325 chain your filing there, am I correct?
Carlton or Woodland Pro?

Also hard to tell but it looks like you're filing a top plate in the 30 degree range.

 

[concretegrazer]

It's not the thickness of a triangle chisel bit file that hampers getting good aggressive angles on a competition chain.
It's the width of a flat chisel bit file that hampers getting those angles.
That's what I remember from back in the day what I found from advice learned from guys like Ron Hartill, Gary Walrath , Walter Galer to name a few.
If your relying on the width of the file to help guide you free hand then that would not apply to filing race chain.
As you would be running a tri file set fixed in a jig if your serious.

Your referring to the width of the sideplate cutting edge of the file right?

 

[Moparmyway]

Moparmyway, looks like a .325 chain your filing there, am I correct?
Carlton or Woodland Pro?

I've only ever square filed Stihl or Oregon .375 or .404

I believe the pictures are Stihl 404

Also hard to tell but it looks like you're filing a top plate in the 30 degree range.

About 20 degrees

 

[concretegrazer]

Welp............,,
Nope
I'm trying to get what your saying, but its not makin sense to me Sir.

Here is a picture of a cutter done with a 3 corner ........... the tie strap is in the wayView attachment 75614

When I use a double bevel, its much less tie strap interferenceView attachment 75615
Most of the strap in this picture was taken away from the round file while cleaning up the gullet

I'm sure that I'm probably doing something wrong, but I'll politely and respectfully never purchase another 3 corner file again. I'm going to keep trying to get what your saying Sir, but maybe it would help me to learn a trick or two from you if you could post up a picture or two that shows what your trying to get this lunkhead to see ??

Stihl .325 barely rubbed.

 

[Willard]

Ok so you believe the chain is .404 Stihl?
Doesn't look like a Stihl side link, more like old Oregon .
If you have a 20 top plate in those 2 pics then you're definitely putting too much side plate angle with that file.
You're even putting to much into the side link with the round file.

 

[Willard]

Stihl .325 barely rubbed.

View attachment 75672

There that looks like Mopar's chain in his 2 pics, except it looks like you got a top plate beak in it.

 

[Moparmyway]

That also looks like a used chain

New chains converted are the worst, by far.

I get 2-3 tanks on a chain before I stop self feeding well.

Ok so you believe the chain is .404 Stihl?
Doesn't look like a Stihl side link, more like old Oregon .
If you have a 20 top plate in those 2 pics then you're definitely putting too much side plate angle with that file.
You're even putting to much into the side link with the round file.

Yuppers, Stihl 404 RS. I'm willing to send you one of my chains to try, but I'd still like to see pics of what you're saying the tooth looks like on your chain, or send me a chain so I can see and feel what you're saying, my chains cut like a mother, and last pretty good, but I'd love to improve them if I can

 

[Moparmyway]

Stihl .325 barely rubbed.

View attachment 75672

That was with a 3 corner, double bevel, or single bevel ?

 

[concretegrazer]

That was with a 3 corner, double bevel, or single bevel ?

3 corner & a fairly sporty angle.

 

[Moparmyway]

3 corner & a fairly sporty angle.

I can use a 3 corner pretty good on a chain with a few sharpenings without hitting the straps, but the new conversions are tough to stay out of the straps

Are you filing on the bar, on the rounded end of a chainvice, or are you holding individual cutters in vice grips or something similar ?

 

[concretegrazer]

I can use a 3 corner pretty good on a chain with a few sharpenings without hitting the straps, but the new conversions are tough to stay out of the straps

I try not to hammer the straps. Just take the angle it allows. Files are too high (or I'm to cheap) to force it.

Are you filing on the bar, on the rounded end of a chainvice, or are you holding individual cutters in vice grips or something similar ?

On the bar normally. I seem to have the best luck with the chain tensioned. I get more flex in the vice I made than on the bar.

 

[Willard]

That also looks like a used chain

New chains converted are the worst, by far.

I get 2-3 tanks on a chain before I stop self feeding well.


Yuppers, Stihl 404 RS. I'm willing to send you one of my chains to try, but I'd still like to see pics of what you're saying the tooth looks like on your chain, or send me a chain so I can see and feel what you're saying, my chains cut like a mother, and last pretty good, but I'd love to improve them if I can

Sounds good for next winter when it's my off season for the tree service. Just too busy at my peak time right now with customer's removals and raising a young family.
This off season I'm starting up a chainsaw sharpening business and will be a dealer for Oregon saw chain and accessories. Got enough inventory of my own already to sell off, lol.
I had to come home early to my shop today and try and explain myself with our views on square filing.
I dug out my 3 corner chisel bit files and could only find 1 old Oberg 150 goofy file (I think what you guys call single bevel files).
Threw some chains in the vise and took some pics.
I can see your problem with the 3 corner hitting the 46RS tie straps.
First pic shows a 46RSF alongside a Oregon 72 race chain filed for cottonwood. You'll notice how much wider the 46 chassis is compared to the 72. Plus the 72 already has its chassis lowered and beveled. That 72 was filed in a jig with the 3 corner file at 30° down and 50° back. No hitting the tie straps.

If I stated the 3 corner does sharper angles over the double bevel, what I mean is with certain competition wood species and sizes the 3 corner clears the depth gauge better then the flat bevel if you want more forward lean in the side plate.
But main positive about the 3 corner is it centers better in a filing jig as a double bevel' s filing edge is offset.

Last pic is my old like new Cannon .050 with a .050 Oregon medium contour sprocket nose. The bar is only 0.140" thick as a standard bar is 0.180"
Also a roll of Oregon 50AL chisel bit chain (.404- .050) chain is not Rusty, just old grease and poor lightening with yellow light.
When I get a hold of some Stihl 46- .404 High tooth, I want to make a loop of this 50AL chain with the high tooth cutters.
Will run this loop on my YZ bikesaw with another 0.140 .050 bar I have with a 2 7/8" roller at 20" long and a 5" belly.

 

[Willard]

So sorry guys and mainly Mopar if I came across as Mr know it all. To be honest last time I filed a race chain was 1990.
Have filed quite abit of 46RSF free hand with the 3 corner on my 090AV - 36" Alaskan mill.

Here's a pic of my .050 20" bull pup bar. Haha.
Also a closeup of the 50AL I want to put the Stihl .404 High tooth cutters on. I just need to find some .058 .404 presets.

 

[Deets066]

So sorry guys and mainly Mopar if I came across as Mr know it all. To be honest last time I filed a race chain was 1990.
Have filed quite abit of 46RSF free hand with the 3 corner on my 090AV - 36" Alaskan mill.

Here's a pic of my .050 20" bull pup bar. Haha.
Also a closeup of the 50AL I want to put the Stihl .404 High tooth cutters on. I just need to find some .058 .404 presets.
View attachment 75734 View attachment 75735

Nice bar, looks like your setup for an awefully big sprocket. Bike saw you said?

 

[Willard]

Nice bar, looks like your setup for an awefully big sprocket. Bike saw you said?

YZ125 liquid cooled I built 34 years ago
Have recently started a complete rebuild and redesign on it.
Got a thread started on it over at Chainsaw Repair Forum

 

[CR888]

I like the old box of Windsor files in the pic. The 'goofy' file there is different to what others describe as a single bevel...its similar to the goofy but with a flat side not round. Double bevel is kinda like two single bevel files stuck together <===>. The filled epoxy cut outs on the race bar were way ahead of their time 30 years ago. When you redesign the YZ-saw will the chain rotation change and he like a conventional saw? Nice stuff Willard.

 

[Moparmyway]

So sorry guys and mainly Mopar if I came across as Mr know it all. To be honest last time I filed a race chain was 1990.
Have filed quite abit of 46RSF free hand with the 3 corner on my 090AV - 36" Alaskan mill.

Here's a pic of my .050 20" bull pup bar. Haha.
Also a closeup of the 50AL I want to put the Stihl .404 High tooth cutters on. I just need to find some .058 .404 presets.

Willard, IMHO, there isnt any need for apologies Sir.

I'm under the impression that all Oregon presets for 404 are the same, its the driver that needs to be considered for the 058 or the 063. I know that Stihl only has 404 in 063.

I'm catching a little trick or two in every picture that youre posting, but would love to see one of your cutters, preferrably a LH one, in the same light that mine are. Up close and personal like, looking at the intersection of the side to top plate. I cant help but notice that to me, it looks like your side plate (mostly seeing it on LH cutters) has a degree or two of back lean. What did you use to take the straps down to the rivets ? Dang near every one looks identical.

I've only filed a few race chains myself, mostly I do work chains, I'm here to learn and help if I can.
I'm going to learn how to touch up my square on my 48" Alaskan without taking the saw outta the cradle, or I'm going to have to get a few more chains for it.

So, you run full skip 404 on your mill ............. did you do anything to the top plate of any of them ? I've been thinking of making the top plate on every other sequence 1/2 as wide, but wasnt considering 404 for milling due to the larger kerf. You've got me thinking !!!

 

[junkman]

All i mill with is .404 now,it oils way better ,grind it square about 15 degrees ,cant get 10 out of my grinder adjustments or i would go 10 on top.

 

[Willard]

CR888, thanks. Yes I'm reversing the engine rotation on the bike saw.
The goofy file is actually a rounded file edge like the Oberg 150 I showed. Bailey's catalog on page 24 shows the design. They actually have a double bevel edge but with the peak rounded off.
Loggers liked them because you only have to use the edge on the flat to meet the corner. Less messing with the inside corner.

Moparmyway, the Oregon .404 50AL like the .375 72 chain is .058 between the links. 52 .404 is .063
My last pics of that 72 race chain's side plates were messed up a little as I was trying the Oberg 150 on it. Back on page 74 of this thread the pics show the proper angles.
When I touch up the Alaskan mill chisrl bit chain. I can file the cutters with the mill on the saw. Saw sitting upright with mill on its side set to about 14" .
I file down into the right cutters and up into the left cutters. All from the clutch side of the saw.
Trick is to leave lots of ledge on the side plate gullet to rest the file on. I find the 3 corner file works better as it has a wider bevel surface to lay on that ledge.
Keep top plates at 10° and don't bother making every second top plate a scratcher tooth. Been there done that. Too much maintenance as those scratcher cutters have to be kept at different even heights from the 10° raker cutters.
With square filed cutters all at 10° it mills just as good or better then the modified round filed rip chain.

 

[Moparmyway]

Moparmyway, the Oregon .404 50AL like the .375 72 chain is .058 between the links. 52 .404 is .063
.

Are we talking about the thickness of the driver Sir ?