Automatic Chain Sharpener - Under $300

[Skeans1]

I think it can handle double left or rights

From the videos it can not do a double sequence.


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[Philbert]

From the videos it can not do a double sequence.

Gun's response to this question on A.S:
"A proximity sensor detects which side the cutter is on, and will then tell the cutting head which sided cutter is up next. Therefore, it will cut any permutation of left or right sided cutters."

It does not like extra tie straps, which are common on many loops.

Philbert

 

[RI Chevy]

What about the chains that end up with having 2 cutters in line on same side???
I would still like to see a photo or 2 of a finished cutter.

 

[jakethesnake]

What about the chains that end up with having 2 cutters in line on same side???
I would still like to see a photo or 2 of a finished cutter.

It’ll do em

 

[Philbert]

What about the chains that end up with having 2 cutters in line on same side???

If there are 2 cutters without a tie strap space between them, I do not think that the machine will be happy, according to the description provided.

Philbert

 

[RI Chevy]

That's kinda what I figured.

 

[bigrichard81]

Not knowing how this is controlled, it would seem straight forward to add a few canned programs for the different chain setup permutations out there. Ignorance always makes problems seem simpler than they really are, but it would seem with 3-4 different program setups you could cover the vast majority of chain configurations.
Regardless of that, I am interested to see Philberts write-up and how this system works. If it works well, the sub$300 price point would be excellent.

 

[Philbert]

Ignorance always makes problems seem simpler than they really are . .

Sometimes a detached perspective will help you see past artificial constraints!

A lot of CNC equipment will have a 'learning' or 'training' mode where it can be operated in a step-by-step manner. This might allow use with oddball cutters, or even ripping chains that have scoring cutters, in a 'semi-automatic' mode.

Philbert

 

[Skeans1]

If there are 2 cutters without a tie strap space between them, I do not think that the machine will be happy, according to the description provided.

Philbert

Which is what I meant sorry for the confusion, it’s common to do on the harvester side.


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[GunTemco]

Regarding the explanation as to why the FP1000 won't automatically do an entire chain of skip tooth chains is mostly due to two design limitations:

1. As you guys already noted, the arm retrieve distance is too short to grab a skip tooth with a large displacement.
2. The onboard computer lacks the necessary programming required to "teach" the arm to go in a varied retrieval pattern.

There are also some other difficulties in fixing this problem, one of them being to get you guys a machine that automatically sharpens skip tooth chains at a low price point. We could easily slap a bunch of brains, motors, and other expensive parts to it, but this will just end up driving up the final cost to our customers. We don't like that.

Our objective is to engineer an elegant therefore cost-effective solution.

Magnet clipped to the chain. Grinder does a full rotation of the loop, and a sensor maps every cutter and if left or right, before starting the grinding.

Won't matter how many links, what skip sequence, if a cutter has been busted off, if double cutters, etc.

Grinder shuts down automatically, because it knows when it has done a full chain loop rotation when the magnet is sensed.

Easier said than done but mapping the chains like this covers almost every base, rather than the programming trying to mimic what it hasn't even mapped.

Interesting concept. Question: how would the arm advance back and retrieve the next cutter up if it didn't know how far it was in the first place? Note that there's only a clamping motor inside the tracks, so the chain gets turned by the force of the arm pushing it, not a track rotating it.

Also, I'm going to bet 90% of you will lose the tiny magnet in your shop and will get super pissed you have to look for it

I’d be interested when there’s a version for doing harvester chains that would be a huge bonus as well as the odd sequence with a double left or right at the beginning.

What about the chains that end up with having 2 cutters in line on same side???
I would still like to see a photo or 2 of a finished cutter.

Noted about the harvester chains.

The FP1000 does do any odd sequence of left or right cutters in any permutation - it has a sensor that detects whether the cutter is left or right facing.

Not knowing how this is controlled, it would seem straight forward to add a few canned programs for the different chain setup permutations out there. Ignorance always makes problems seem simpler than they really are, but it would seem with 3-4 different program setups you could cover the vast majority of chain configurations.
Regardless of that, I am interested to see Philberts write-up and how this system works. If it works well, the sub$300 price point would be excellent.

Sometimes a detached perspective will help you see past artificial constraints!

A lot of CNC equipment will have a 'learning' or 'training' mode where it can be operated in a step-by-step manner. This might allow use with oddball cutters, or even ripping chains that have scoring cutters, in a 'semi-automatic' mode.

Philbert

Definitely some good ideas, each with their own engineering, manufacturing, practical, etc. limitations. Each design change has a particular cost attached to it, and some solutions are much more expensive than others. I'm a broken record on this by now: I cannot discuss current R&D. I can note that we do have something in the works, one that holds true to what this product is: a cost-effective automatic chainsaw chain sharpener. It is definitely a challenge!

 

[RI Chevy]

Thanks for the continuous feedback and offers!

 

[KiwiBro (deleted)]

Calibrate as it does now, with the stipulation it can't include any out-of-sequence cutters in that calibration routine.
There are only going to be very limited and known fractions of that pitch which, having mapped the chain with a full loop rotation, the grinder knows where to retire and then advance that fraction of the pitch instead of the normal advance. For example, the mapping shows the grinder that it has to advance 1/2 the normal amount for cutters 27 and 28 and then return to normal sequence thereafter if there are more cutters to do on that loop.

 

[GunTemco]

Thanks for the continuous feedback and offers!

Thanks for the continuous comments and feedback!

Calibrate as it does now, with the stipulation it can't include any out-of-sequence cutters in that calibration routine.
There are only going to be very limited and known fractions of that pitch which, having mapped the chain with a full loop rotation, the grinder knows where to retire and then advance that fraction of the pitch instead of the normal advance. For example, the mapping shows the grinder that it has to advance 1/2 the normal amount for cutters 27 and 28 and then return to normal sequence thereafter if there are more cutters to do on that loop.

Hm, perhaps there was some confusion before about it "calibrating." My apologies for being unclear. Please allow me to start over:

When using the FP1000, length (how far the arm pushes forward) and pitch (how far the arm returns back) actually has to be set manually so that the cutter lines up just enough to the grinder. The reason it counts 5 cutters back is to calibrate the left or right facing cutters.

Our videos on how to use the FP1000 demonstrates this. Here is the link to Part 8 of 15 in the playlist where all calibrations must be made (also watch Part 9, which auto plays next):

(Mods: Please note the link to the video is entirely instructional and links to this playlist have already been linked before. I believe the videos provide a great deal of demonstrative and instructional non marketing material directly related to responding to @KiwiBro but if you believe it should be removed from the post, please simply delete the URL or instruct me to do so.)

Now, we do have something in the works in R&D. Fret not, @KiwiBro.

 

[Gary Courtney]

I am interested and watching video but I am getting dizzy .

 

[GunTemco]

I am interested and watching video but I am getting dizzy .

It is a little bit of an information dump, but having the machine in front of you and following the steps for the first time is a lot easier. Personally, I'm a hands-on learner - I need to actually go through the steps myself to learn it. Once you've done one, it's pretty simple afterwards. We made the videos as an instructional guide for people who already bought one and the manual instructions aren't enough - showing the steps is much simpler for them. We've also had customers who bought the machine, chucked the manual, and just figured it out.

 

[KiwiBro (deleted)]

Thank you Gun. That youtube playlist is fantastic.

 

[KiwiBro (deleted)]

If I'm understanding this correctly, to handle two cutters without a tie strap between them, the user could start the grinder on the second cutter and finish the loop on the first of those cutters. Would that work? If so, and with the machine doing its pre-grind calibration tango, the user would have to count back along the chain and be very careful about where they position those two cutters on the machine to start with when they first place the loop in the machine.

Would positioning the proximity sensor between the shortest expected feed pawl start point and feed pawl stop points rather than before the feed pawl start point eliminate the calibration tango?

 

[wcorey]

A ~$400 automated square grinder... I'd be in for throwing some $'s into a crowd funded pre-purchase...

Square grinding is definitely a niche market but an automatic machine would also certainly support a much higher price point.
Unfortunately I somehow doubt the size of the customer base would meet the manufacturing numbers needed to make a production run, never mind the product development needed to get to that point.
Though if an affordable solution were presented, a lot more people would likely come on board with it but getting the word out on a large scale would equate to a veritable cultural shift…

Having recently completed building my own (manual) square grinder, a lot of the design issues are fresh in my mind.

To automate square grinding on a budget machine would have it’s own set of hurdles to say the least.
Basically (very basically) what I see is this;

A higher level of accuracy of the indexing needs to be accomplished on multiple planes rather than just one or maybe two with round grinding.
The geometry of the square cutter necessitates the cutter being pushed into the wheel rather than the wheel being lowered onto the cutter, at least one more axis of motion would be needed.
A look at how the conversion kit for the USG accomplishes the task may yield some useful insight.

Wheel wear is a critical problem where much more frequent and relatively precise dressing on two separate faces is required. Not only does the dressing hardware have to be integrated onto the machine but also to the point of possibly needing automated dressing to go with the automated grinding, particularly when converting round chains to square.

Such a small wheel as on the Temco wouldn’t allow much for the increase in consumption.
A larger wheel then needs a larger motor and corresponding heavier infrastructure to support it.

The more I think about it, the more I could go on and on…

 

[Philbert]

A ~$400 automated square grinder...

A $400 manual square grinder would be a hot seller. Waiting to see a quality clone of the Simington / Silvey Swing Arm grinder. An auto square grinder would not provide the range of angles desired, unless it also allowed custom wheel dressing / profiling.

Anyway, that would be a different thread, but it shows the continued interest among guys on this site.

Philbert

 

[RI Chevy]

I would still like to see a closeup photo of a couple of finished cutters.