661 Stroker

[RI Chevy]

Wow. Thanks for all the clarifications Dave. One of the most helpful posts of 2020! [emoji106][emoji482]

 

[MustangMike]

Dave, thanks for all the valuable info, and I agree with most of it, but I'm going to back you up on one thing.

Port timing on 440, 460 + 660 jugs are all over the place, most builders prefer the OEM Stihl jugs because the plating is far better than most AM jugs. Less chipping at the ports, thicker, harder, etc. ALL of the AM jugs I've ported have cut easier than OEM Stihl.

 

[Deets066]

I totally agree, I know several builders who insist on an OEM jug being sent out and re-plated (preferably by Millenium) before they will accept a saw to build. In addition to the superior plating they are also more meticulous and hone a straighter bore than OEM. If you are fighting for 1/1000th of a second, you do what has been proven to make a positive difference


Eight so far


Yep skirt length and compression height are identical to OEM, while the skirt width and other specs are quite different


Depending on the original plating and the intended use there are a lot of coatings and linings that can be used, Nikasil or a similar HARD plating is required to run chrome-faced steel rings like NPR.
Many cylinders are indeed chrome lined but not many modern era chainsaws.


Regardless of who bores the jug, I send them out to Millenium (for two piece cylinders) or US Chrome (standard one piece cylinders), there is a place in Europe, but I need to find the info on them again.





The Short Version:
I did a LOT of research in this area when we initially destroyed several brand new ported OEM Stihl MS661 cylinders in the saws of some good guys who did testing for us.
I eventually talked at length with engineers at Wiseco, Total Seal, NPR, Caber, Mahle, Stihl, Husqvarna, Gillardoni, Meteor, KoblenSchmidt and a couple metallurgists including a Doctoral University Science Department Chair.
Mahle owns Nikasil, period. NOBODY else can use the coating or process. Nikasil is very hard and accepts the rough treatment a plating gets from the Chrome rings.
Husqvarna has been using Mahle nearly exclusively for Pro level chainsaws since the 3 series began, so they are good to go. Since Stihl uses four different manufacturers to ge the best price on their cylinder prep and plating they cannot use Nikasil. They use a proprietary softer plating that Mahle, Gillardoni, Stihl, and KS can all apply identically. So for the 3 series forward Husqvarna cylinders ARE Nikasil. Mahle obviously manufactures cylinders for other companies and uses Nikasil when specified.




This is true, but not due to the Plating per se.
Builders like to have a reliable cylinder that is as close to identical from one to another as possible, so they can develop a great "recipe" for that model and not have to start from scratch every time they start work on a jug.
Most aftermarket cylinders don't have that kind of quality control.


The weight of a crank, in conjunction with the balance is a can of worms best left for specialists in my opinion. When we have them stroked for the 3140xp Husky pipe saws, Crankworks does a LOT of different tasks in making the crank perfect. A race saw NEEDS a balanced crank, whether it is stock, stroked, ported or a full circle build. Again when you are looking for 1/1000th, you go where it lives The Mac big motors offered a shot peened crank as a Kart motor option, adopted by saw guys.


This is where Fun lives!!


This makes me weep, bro

Dave

TL;DR

 

[Redfin]

I totally agree, I know several builders who insist on an OEM jug being sent out and re-plated (preferably by Millenium) before they will accept a saw to build. In addition to the superior plating they are also more meticulous and hone a straighter bore than OEM. If you are fighting for 1/1000th of a second, you do what has been proven to make a positive difference


Eight so far


Yep skirt length and compression height are identical to OEM, while the skirt width and other specs are quite different


Depending on the original plating and the intended use there are a lot of coatings and linings that can be used, Nikasil or a similar HARD plating is required to run chrome-faced steel rings like NPR.
Many cylinders are indeed chrome lined but not many modern era chainsaws.


Regardless of who bores the jug, I send them out to Millenium (for two piece cylinders) or US Chrome (standard one piece cylinders), there is a place in Europe, but I need to find the info on them again.





The Short Version:
I did a LOT of research in this area when we initially destroyed several brand new ported OEM Stihl MS661 cylinders in the saws of some good guys who did testing for us.
I eventually talked at length with engineers at Wiseco, Total Seal, NPR, Caber, Mahle, Stihl, Husqvarna, Gillardoni, Meteor, KoblenSchmidt and a couple metallurgists including a Doctoral University Science Department Chair.
Mahle owns Nikasil, period. NOBODY else can use the coating or process. Nikasil is very hard and accepts the rough treatment a plating gets from the Chrome rings.
Husqvarna has been using Mahle nearly exclusively for Pro level chainsaws since the 3 series began, so they are good to go. Since Stihl uses four different manufacturers to ge the best price on their cylinder prep and plating they cannot use Nikasil. They use a proprietary softer plating that Mahle, Gillardoni, Stihl, and KS can all apply identically. So for the 3 series forward Husqvarna cylinders ARE Nikasil. Mahle obviously manufactures cylinders for other companies and uses Nikasil when specified.




This is true, but not due to the Plating per se.
Builders like to have a reliable cylinder that is as close to identical from one to another as possible, so they can develop a great "recipe" for that model and not have to start from scratch every time they start work on a jug.
Most aftermarket cylinders don't have that kind of quality control.


The weight of a crank, in conjunction with the balance is a can of worms best left for specialists in my opinion. When we have them stroked for the 3140xp Husky pipe saws, Crankworks does a LOT of different tasks in making the crank perfect. A race saw NEEDS a balanced crank, whether it is stock, stroked, ported or a full circle build. Again when you are looking for 1/1000th, you go where it lives The Mac big motors offered a shot peened crank as a Kart motor option, adopted by saw guys.


This is where Fun lives!!


This makes me weep, bro

Dave

Nice post Pops, you need a nap now?

 

[Redfin]

Dave, thanks for all the valuable info, and I agree with most of it, but I'm going to back you up on one thing.

Port timing on 440, 460 + 660 jugs are all over the place, most builders prefer the OEM Stihl jugs because the plating is far better than most AM jugs. Less chipping at the ports, thicker, harder, etc. ALL of the AM jugs I've ported have cut easier than OEM Stihl.

Really doesnt matter what the plating when boring.

 

[MustangMike]

That is true, but I was referring to most builders doing a woods port (the bulk of their work), most of them don't want to touch an AM jug.

 

[Deets066]

That is true, but I was referring to most builders doing a woods port (the bulk of their work), most of them don't want to touch an AM jug.

Once again you are not wrong, this is mainly because they are cheap pieces of shiit.

Plating is garbage
Cylinders usually have poor port timing and terrible flow through the tunnels.
Bores can be out of round...

We all know this shiit Mike, but it has nothing to do with this thread.

 

[jacob j.]

The Short Version:
I did a LOT of research in this area when we initially destroyed several brand new ported OEM Stihl MS661 cylinders in the saws of some good guys who did testing for us.
I eventually talked at length with engineers at Wiseco, Total Seal, NPR, Caber, Mahle, Stihl, Husqvarna, Gillardoni, Meteor, KoblenSchmidt and a couple metallurgists including a Doctoral University Science Department Chair.
Mahle owns Nikasil, period. NOBODY else can use the coating or process. Nikasil is very hard and accepts the rough treatment a plating gets from the Chrome rings.
Husqvarna has been using Mahle nearly exclusively for Pro level chainsaws since the 3 series began, so they are good to go. Since Stihl uses four different manufacturers to ge the best price on their cylinder prep and plating they cannot use Nikasil. They use a proprietary softer plating that Mahle, Gillardoni, Stihl, and KS can all apply identically. So for the 3 series forward Husqvarna cylinders ARE Nikasil. Mahle obviously manufactures cylinders for other companies and uses Nikasil when specified.

This is great stuff - thank you sir.

 

[Lightning Performance]

So... this just splained why Dolkitas have nice jugs
Franks DDawg



Mikey, you missed boat on "why" Some good points but not the main reasons for using OEM jugs.

Some do a few good AM offerings but like Mr. Detter said find ones with round holes is your first hill to climb. When I find good ones ordering three or four more seems to net me a 50/50 ratio of round holes or less. Then they must be fixed just to use. Why start there most times. Even new OEM is rarely offering A cylinders over the counter. They make three grades A, AB and B

Bore and plate, machined maybe, ported OEM gives you A and AA grade with no edges. Zero worries on 99% of the castings. I need bigger motors but not for racing. DDawg has to keep aluminum scuff off the cylinder walls or it is an instant fail, no mistakes. Same deal with strokers, no mistakes or it's very bad most times when chit fails. Nothing new there.

 

[Deets066]

So... this just splained why Dolkitas have nice jugs
Franks DDawg



Mikey, you missed boat on "why" Some good points but not the main reasons for using OEM jugs.

Some do a few good AM offerings but like Mr. Detter said find ones with round holes is your first hill to climb. When I find good ones ordering three or four more seems to net me a 50/50 ratio of round holes or less. Then they must be fixed just to use. Why start there most times. Even new OEM is rarely offering A cylinders over the counter. They make three grades A, AB and B

Bore and plate, machined maybe, ported OEM gives you A and AA grade with no edges. Zero worries on 99% of the castings. I need bigger motors but not for racing. DDawg has to keep aluminum scuff off the cylinder walls or it is an instant fail, no mistakes. Same deal with strokers, no mistakes or it's very bad most times when chit fails. Nothing new there.

Your entire post made sense Kenny.

Been cuttin back?

 

[Maintenance Chief]

If I read DDs post correctly, Nikasil is only used by Mahle and any other claims of its use are suspect or false?
Is that right?

 

[mgr1]

Mahle invented nicasil and has a patent.
Other marks are not fake, different composition they use.

 

[Definitive Dave]

Dave, thanks for all the valuable info, and I agree with most of it, but I'm going to back you up on one thing.

Port timing on 440, 460 + 660 jugs are all over the place, most builders prefer the OEM Stihl jugs because the plating is far better than most AM jugs. Less chipping at the ports, thicker, harder, etc. ALL of the AM jugs I've ported have cut easier than OEM Stihl.

I will agree that most aftermarket plating is crappy. OEM is better, but I say we pole (poll, I guess that's a Freudian slip on my part) the builders here as to the factors that make them choose an OEM cylinder to port over aftermarket.
I would rate the plating this way.
1) Mahle Nikasil
2) Millenium, Gillardoni/Meteor
3) KS, US Chrome, Hyway
4) Stihl
5) Everyone else

For Cylinder fit and finish
1) Millenium, Gilly/Meteor
2) KS, US Chrome, Mahle
3) Stihl
4) Hyway
5) the rest

 

[Definitive Dave]

Nice post Pops, you need a nap now?

its always potentially nap time, me boyo

 

[Definitive Dave]

If I read DDs post correctly, Nikasil is only used by Mahle and any other claims of its use are suspect or false?
Is that right?

Correct!!
Many other platers/manufacturers incorrectly use "Nikasil" in the way that folks use "Xerox machine" to refer to any brand of copier.
They use different formulation and process to apply the coating, some are quite good (in using "good" I mean hard and smooth).
To stop all the companies incorrectly/fraudulently using the "Nikasil" name is likely far too late for Mahle to litigate.
Dave

 

[RI Chevy]

Your dating yourself Dave. Lol

 

[RI Chevy]

SO. How's that new build thread going for you Kenny? Looking forward to a Lightening Performance Build with test cuts and stuff. Photos. Videos. All the things that to into it.

 

[MustangMike]

To stop all the companies incorrectly/fraudulently using the "Nikasil" name is likely far too late for Mahle to litigate.
Dave

How old is the patent … they don't last 4-ever!

 

[Lightning Performance]

Your entire post made sense Kenny.

Been cuttin back?

Rof
Tryin boss

 

[RI Chevy]

Some product patents are good for 20 years from application date. Design patents usually last 14 years.