What oil is best? and what ratio?

[Egg Shooter]

I get the impression it makes needle adjustments a little lazy, but I haven't run and tuned with a bunch of oils.

That could be a way of describing RA tuning, lazy tuning. It seems to make you work at it more. Still a great oil. Just different is all.

 

[Mastermind]

That was the first I've heard of any tuning issues with RA.

If you really have an ear for a tight tune, you notice how different one oil can be vs another.

Before I found this place I ran Stihl orange bottle oil in a 029 Farm boss. Never had a single issue with it in over 20 years of hard use. Piston looked brand new when I sold it.
Go figure

Friend of mine ran that stuff for years and years. Never had an oil related failure. He did have exhaust ports nearly blocked with carbon though. Of course, he can't tune worth a damn. LOL

I found RA in 60cc saws and small hand held engines to be trickier to get spot on tuning. It is a thick oil, strong oil. Echo made it to slow done warranty claims would be my guess.
In stihl four mix engines RA runs great at 64:1 and feels more like a 50:1 oil.
Trigger take up is slower with RA at 50:1.

John here....he can really tune.

 

[Egg Shooter]

If you really have an ear for a tight tune, you notice how different one oil can be vs another.



Friend of mine ran that stuff for years and years. Never had an oil related failure. He did have exhaust ports nearly blocked with carbon though. Of course, he can't tune worth a damn. LOL



John here....he can really tune.

Yes, yes he can.

 

[Egg Shooter]

Wow. How many days have we had a civil oil discussion in here? It can be done.

 

[Mastermind]

Wow. How many days have we had a civil oil discussion in here? It can be done.

Well....Ben can't do it.

 

[Egg Shooter]

Well....Ben can't do it.

That's definitely a fact lol.

 

[Hinerman]

Well....Ben can't do it.

That didn’t take long,

 

[huskyboy]

Imo shaeffers 7000 was one oil I felt like I could tune saws safely to a higher rpm than normally. At least out of the handful of oils I’ve tried. Was it a huge difference? No. But I think it’s because it was sorta thin viscosity wise compared to some oils that are thicker. I tested it at 40:1. I also noticed some oils leave wash quicker on a piston top than others. That’s kind of hard to test though since the transfer roofs can vary on saws. I’d attribute the wash almost entirely to the transfer roof than the oil… but I still think the oil has some sort of effect depending on its flash point. A lower flash point probably leaves wash quicker than a higher one if I had to guess.

 

[Egg Shooter]

Imo shaeffers 7000 was one oil I felt like I could tune saws safely to a higher rpm than normally. At least out of the handful of oils I’ve tried. Was it a huge difference? No. But I think it’s because it was sorta thin viscosity wise compared to some oils that are thicker. I tested it at 40:1. I also noticed some oils leave wash quicker on a piston top than others. That’s kind of hard to test though since the transfer roofs can vary on saws. I’d attribute the wash almost entirely to the transfer roof than the oil… but I still think the oil has some sort of effect depending on its flash point. A lower flash point probably leaves wash quicker than a higher one if I had to guess.

Ive noticed a correlation between thicker vs thinner in the tuning department and effective throttle response.

Klotz even kinda states this without saying "thinner makes more power" see description below product picture.

https://klotzlube.com/shop/ols/products/xn-kl-198-lite-techniplate-z5ar

 

[Egg Shooter]

To me it would only make sense that thinner oils would make for better throttle response, maybe more power and easier tuning because they have less resistance to flow, which is going to effect an ope engine more so than a power sports type engine, ie, bike, atv sled ect.

 

[Nutball]

Ive often thought if it would be worth running WD40 just for a cant race. Even bearing resistance is very high with 2 stroke oil compared to WD40 let alone piston travel resistance.

 

[Mastermind]

Ive often thought if it would be worth running WD40 just for a cant race. Even bearing resistance is very high with 2 stroke oil compared to WD40 let alone piston travel resistance.

Just try Dominator at 100:1

Make some cuts with your regular mix, then try the 100:1 mix. Retune of course.

Personally, I'm not sure you would see a faster cut time, but I'd be interested in seeing the results.

 

[RI Chevy]

I know a guy who runs straight gas with a capful of this stuff. I ran 2 full tanks through the saw and had to see it to believe it. As far as I know the saw is still running and piston and cylinder look decent.
@166
@SOS Ridgerider
Saw is a small Dolkita.

 

[Egg Shooter]

Ive often thought if it would be worth running WD40 just for a cant race. Even bearing resistance is very high with 2 stroke oil compared to WD40 let alone piston travel resistance.

I doubt you will ever get anyone to try that lol.

I do know, from my own personal usage and the testing that the thinner oils seemed snappier and easier to tune. In my testing thicker has not meant better for wear protection either. Not what I or most expected to see. The two "best" oils over all in my testing are at opposite ends of viscosity and intended usage. One is an ope oil the other a motor sports oil. They finished the tests virtually unscathed, and they also were clean despite being pushed to or beyond their limits. So viscosity doesn't always mean better protection.

 

[Egg Shooter]

Just try Dominator at 100:1

Make some cuts with your regular mix, then try the 100:1 mix. Retune of course.

Personally, I'm not sure you would see a faster cut time, but I'd be interested in seeing the results.

That pos clammy Homelite I did my first port job on might get that treatment up at Kevins. Its too heavy for my wrecked neck but I'm sure others will run the snot out of it if I supply the fuel. I was thinking 70-80:1
Its completely rebuilt with new bearings and all. If it pops it pops.

 

[Sawrain]

Ive often thought if it would be worth running WD40 just for a cant race. Even bearing resistance is very high with 2 stroke oil compared to WD40 let alone piston travel resistance.

An oiled bearing might not spin freely in your hand compared to one fed wd40, but hot and loaded is very a different story.

Same goes for the piston, compared to the alternative options oil isn’t causing a large amount of drag, apart from the very top and bottom of travel before the piston has sufficient speed the piston is fairly well operating on the principle of hydrodynamic lubrication, that is the majority of the piston is gliding on an oil film/wedge a few microns thick, with very little actual contact.

I doubt wd40 would support that kind of lubrication, and a piston in direct contact with the cylinder will surely have more friction than caused by the viscous drag of 2t oil.

IMO this is why cheap/old school oils work well when you use ample amounts, if there is a generous amount of oil to go around then the chance of metal on metal contact is low, main bearings, big end bearings, pistons rings and the piston generate elastohydrodynamic and hydrodynamic film lubrication, going a long way to limit metal to metal contact.

If there isn’t enough oil to build up this layer of oil to physically seperate the piston/cylinder, your saw fails, again IMO this is why a cheaper oil can work at the right ratio, as the physical phenomenon of an oil layer building up between the moving parts does the majority of the anti friction anti wear work, not just the oils fancy properties.

Now (IMO) as we go to running less oil I guess that’s where super oils shine, their tenacious adherence to surfaces probably means less oil is needed to be on the job to form a physical oil film, and even when the film breaks down they are strong enough to limit wearing.

 

[SOS Ridgerider]

I know a guy who runs straight gas with a capful of this stuff. I ran 2 full tanks through the saw and had to see it to believe it. As far as I know the saw is still running and piston and cylinder look decent.
@166
@SOS Ridgerider
Saw is a small Dolkita.View attachment 302134

That saw still runs, and looks just fine inside. I haven't ran it in a little while, but the plan is to run it as soon the big trees out front of my house come down.

 

[Egg Shooter]

An oiled bearing might not spin freely in your hand compared to one fed wd40, but hot and loaded is very a different story.

Same goes for the piston, compared to the alternative options oil isn’t causing a large amount of drag, apart from the very top and bottom of travel before the piston has sufficient speed the piston is fairly well operating on the principle of hydrodynamic lubrication, that is the majority of the piston is gliding on an oil film/wedge a few microns thick, with very little actual contact.

I doubt wd40 would support that kind of lubrication, and a piston in direct contact with the cylinder will surely have more friction than caused by the viscous drag of 2t oil.

IMO this is why cheap/old school oils work well when you use ample amounts, if there is a generous amount of oil to go around then the chance of metal on metal contact is low, main bearings, big end bearings, pistons rings and the piston generate elastohydrodynamic and hydrodynamic film lubrication, going a long way to limit metal to metal contact.

If there isn’t enough oil to build up this layer of oil to physically seperate the piston/cylinder, your saw fails, again IMO this is why a cheaper oil can work at the right ratio, as the physical phenomenon of an oil layer building up between the moving parts does the majority of the anti friction anti wear work, not just the oils fancy properties.

Now (IMO) as we go to running less oil I guess that’s where super oils shine, their tenacious adherence to surfaces probably means less oil is needed to be on the job to form a physical oil film, and even when the film breaks down they are strong enough to limit wearing.

100% agreement. Its why I say correct ratio for the intended task / engine is important over oil brand. If i were to run the oils that you saw perform to a lesser degree than some of the others, I'd run more of it. Simple as that.

 

[Mastermind]

An oiled bearing might not spin freely in your hand compared to one fed wd40, but hot and loaded is very a different story.

Same goes for the piston, compared to the alternative options oil isn’t causing a large amount of drag, apart from the very top and bottom of travel before the piston has sufficient speed the piston is fairly well operating on the principle of hydrodynamic lubrication, that is the majority of the piston is gliding on an oil film/wedge a few microns thick, with very little actual contact.

I doubt wd40 would support that kind of lubrication, and a piston in direct contact with the cylinder will surely have more friction than caused by the viscous drag of 2t oil.

IMO this is why cheap/old school oils work well when you use ample amounts, if there is a generous amount of oil to go around then the chance of metal on metal contact is low, main bearings, big end bearings, pistons rings and the piston generate elastohydrodynamic and hydrodynamic film lubrication, going a long way to limit metal to metal contact.

If there isn’t enough oil to build up this layer of oil to physically seperate the piston/cylinder, your saw fails, again IMO this is why a cheaper oil can work at the right ratio, as the physical phenomenon of an oil layer building up between the moving parts does the majority of the anti friction anti wear work, not just the oils fancy properties.

Now (IMO) as we go to running less oil I guess that’s where super oils shine, their tenacious adherence to surfaces probably means less oil is needed to be on the job to form a physical oil film, and even when the film breaks down they are strong enough to limit wearing.

Thank you for an excellent post.

 

[Nutball]

I've read about a 10,000rpm limit on some Klotz oils according to them. I figured it was due to too high of viscosity not able to get in tight places that move too quickly.

Can oil or any fluid become effectively more viscous when moved faster? If you know what I mean.