Inside the MS462C

[wyksta]

Cool. What type of port job did you do? Mild? Moderate? Full out?
I thought there would be a bigger difference in the ported saw.

You could maybe do a squish adjustment and more aggressive porting. But I never participated in the porting wars myself, so adjusting the squish when she puts out over 180psi seems a bit much to me. I am sure Randy or whomever could do much better. My main point was sometimes with an M-Tronic saw, a little mod goes a long ways.

Having said that, I do think removing the baffle and enlarging the exit on that muffler and saw combo was a HUGE difference. The sound pressure goes up insanely. Almost as though it has no muffler. Not sure it came across as well in the videos. It really is a massive difference, and the saw starts to pull much more strongly. Again, maybe it's the air here, or maybe the mufflers were different from what others had, because the muffler mod is surely different - I haven't heard of anyone else ever removing the baffle.

 

[wyksta]

Wow, this improvement only by doing a MM is awesome till unbelievable. I did several analytic tests and comparisons in hundreds of timed cuts. The way how you cut (push, leveraging) has main influence into the cutting times. Also the wood, even the same wood couldn’t guarantee the same time. Also the chain has to bee the same. Therewhy I do the tests with different loads by checking the rpm‘s. In this way I can take a look to the improvement in torque and power.

The best way to compare and measure the gain is a power measurement.

We had a guy tried to dyno stuff on another forum. Dunno if he's still at it. I only pop in on occasion to the woods forums anymore.

But as far as comparing - it's sort of like chainsaw weight. Unless you trust someone, it's best you have the saw before yourself to judge it yourself. Take everything on the interwebs with a grain of salt and some whiskey.

I always do.

 

[RI Chevy]

Excellent videos from both of you! Thank you for taking your time to explain everything to us. [emoji106]
Looking forward to getting these saws here in the USA.
@wyksta
@ClerenceHill

 

[Dub11]

It's an 18" bar, running semi chisel 325 chain I think, tip buried in horse chestnut, which is about like poplar. Here's the vid of it stock, muffler modded, and then ported with the muff mod. If I recall, it had great compression as stock, too. Lemme see if I can find the pic... ah here:

All three vids were taken the same day, only a few hours apart, and in the exact same piece of wood. Bear in mind this is also nearly right at sea level, in very cool and damp air.

It is definitely stronger ported, and you can see the clutch cover is starting to stuff up with chips, but is it worth spending several hours on it and charging a couple hundred bucks? *Shrug*. If I had a 261, I wouldn't bother porting it. I'd remove the baffle and be done. I MIGHT gut the stratos, tho, as fuel economy on a 50cc means very little to me. But she pulls fairly strong with just the muff mod.

Nice job and love the video. Short And to the point. And don' be afraid to cut that clutch cover up for some extra chip clearance !

 

[RI Chevy]

Wow. Who woulda thunk a muffler could be that restrictive?

 

[sawmikaze]

Wow. Who woulda thunk a muffler could be that restrictive?

I'd love to see a 261 with a timing bump and a muffler mod go head to head with a full woods ported saw with all things even to see the difference.

 

[RI Chevy]

That would be cool. Different stages of modifications and the improvements that are observed.
Muffler mod
Timing bump
Base gasket delete
Full Woods Port

 

[sawmikaze]

That would be cool. Different stages of modifications and the improvements that are observed.
Muffler mod
Timing bump
Base gasket delete
Full Woods Port

I forgot..brad has a video somewhere.

 

[blsnelling]

That would be cool. Different stages of modifications and the improvements that are observed.
Muffler mod
Timing bump
Base gasket delete
Full Woods Port

I did an extensive progressive build on these a few years ago. The thread is over on AS.

 

[blsnelling]

I cut through one with a burr on a stock 261 I had and I'll agree it wasn't but a tick or so behind a woods ported saw.

Porting should make a big difference in these.

 

[blsnelling]

AFAIK, this was the first 261 in the states. I later did anther thread with varying mods.

https://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/the-ms261-is-here.153482/

 

[Stihl working Hard]

Lol. You should see their faces when I tell them my saw runs and 4 strokes at 15800. LMAO.
I brought one in to show mechanic. He stood there with his mouth open and said it can't be. He he he he.
They now think I am crazy. Lol

There probably waiting on you to burn the big end or worse Jeff

 

[blsnelling]

I can't seem to find the other thread. I think it as when I bought several 261s that I rebuilt.

 

[blsnelling]

I forgot..brad has a video somewhere.

Here's the video.

 

[RI Chevy]

Thanks for digging up all the threads sir! [emoji106]

 

[wyksta]

I have a 261 muffler on my bench and it has a very discreet baffle, at a glance it looks like a hollow can...I cut through one with a burr on a stock 261 I had and I'll agree it wasn't but a tick or so behind a woods ported saw.

I think that may be it. I hear from a lot of folks they don't have a baffle. But if you look at the stock muffler through the exhaust outlet you obviously can not see the muffler inlet, which you should be able to see if there were no baffle. The baffle forces the exhaust to go to the front of the muffler, bounce off 180*, with some of it exiting out the top outlet, and some of it reflecting back into the exhaust port of the cylinder. It's basically a partition/divider. Once removed, which takes a bit of effort unless you can separate the muffler in two, the exhaust has a straight shot of less than a couple of inches directly out of the muffler. At this point, enlarging the stock muffler outlet makes a much bigger difference in performance. Another thing I started doing after I saw how well it worked was adding or enlarging muffler exhaust ports as close as I possibly could to the cylinder exhaust port - which is usually simply the first baffle on most saws.

 

[wyksta]

Wow. Who woulda thunk a muffler could be that restrictive?

I think the issue with the 261 muffler is the baffle is nearly flush with the top of the exhaust port from the cylinder, and is basically a big shelf. So it is forcing the pulse from the cylinder down as much as forwards VS up the instant it leaves the cylinder. Because of this, you have a lot of exhaust deflected off the bottom of the baffle towards the bottom of the muffler, causing a great deal of turbulence and back pressure immediately in the path of the exhaust port, with very little of the initial energy pulse forcing the exhaust out of the tiny muffler port. That also means a simple MM done after the baffle isn't making nearly as much an improvement as it would with the baffle removed as all that exhaust and pressure has to fight it's way through all the turbulence to find the other port. With the baffle removed and muffler port opened, not only can the gases flow out of the muffler immediately in all directions, hugely reducing turbulence and pressures, but any pressure pulses are immediately diffused into a much larger, lower-pressured area(AKA the atmosphere) nearly the moment the piston opens to the muffler. It's very easy to tell how stopped up the muffler is when you do this because the dB increase is rather dramatic.

I never really pursued this much on the forums before because so many people stateside told me they saw no baffle in theirs. I just assumed we were lucky in Europe to get great gains for relatively little work. And if I wanted to nearly halve the cut times, I just could throw a bit of porting on top. After all, so many euro mufflers seemed to be much more restrictive than many of the other ones I had seen; the 044 comes immediately to mind. Once you place a DP and gutted muffler on an 044, it really comes alive here. This is a pic of one on my personal 10mm saw:

 

[ferris]

This clip compares a stock and a modded (MM & ignition timing advance) 462 CMVW
Enjoy

Pls Show us your muff mod
How big do u go with it?
How much degree advance?

 

[sawmikaze]

I think that may be it. I hear from a lot of folks they don't have a baffle. But if you look at the stock muffler through the exhaust outlet you obviously can not see the muffler inlet, which you should be able to see if there were no baffle. The baffle forces the exhaust to go to the front of the muffler, bounce off 180*, with some of it exiting out the top outlet, and some of it reflecting back into the exhaust port of the cylinder. It's basically a partition/divider. Once removed, which takes a bit of effort unless you can separate the muffler in two, the exhaust has a straight shot of less than a couple of inches directly out of the muffler. At this point, enlarging the stock muffler outlet makes a much bigger difference in performance. Another thing I started doing after I saw how well it worked was adding or enlarging muffler exhaust ports as close as I possibly could to the cylinder exhaust port - which is usually simply the first baffle on most saws.

I know i saw a picture of one split open but I can't find it, similar to a 361 it has almost what I'd call a tube the exhaust travels through after the exhaust hits the front of the muffler to exit out...I just can't remember exactly, but nonetheless cutting through the stock outlet to eliminate the restriction makes a HUGE difference.

 

[sawmikaze]

Cool. What type of port job did you do? Mild? Moderate? Full out?
I thought there would be a bigger difference in the ported saw.

I have a 346xp that has the squish tightened and a muffler mod with an unlimited coil that's taken the lunch of more than one ported 50cc saw.