Carbide Chains

[Philbert]

@AVB started a thread on a specific brand/model of carbide saw chains; I thought that a general thread on carbide chains might be helpful as a resource for comments and information on all types of carbide chainsaw chain designed to cut wood and similar materials (e.g. not the concrete and iron cutting stuff).

There are a number of different products and applications, and a lot of questions that come up periodically. Some of these chains are specifically designed for fire and rescue applications (cutting building materials). Some may work on conventional chainsaws with the correct pitch and gauge. Having this info in one spot could make it easier to find.

*Note: by listing items in this thread I am not specifically endorsing or critiquing any product. I would like people who have used these chains to share their comments and experiences:

- what are carbide chains good at?
- what are they not good at?
- what do they cost?
- how is sharpening / repair different than conventional chain?
- are they a good value?

Referenced thread: http://opeforum.com/threads/carbide-3-8-lp.4778/#post-260143

Philbert

 

[Philbert]

STIHL Picco Duro 3

From the STIHL USA website:
https://www.stihlusa.com/products/chain-saws/specialty-saw-chains/pd3/

"STIHL PICCO™ Duro 3 is a low-profile, low-kickback chain specially designed for longer cutting edge life. Precision-welded carbide cutting edges make the STIHL PICCO™ Duro extremely hard – keeping it sharp up to four times longer than standard saw chains. It also provides reduced vibration for comfortable operation. And because of its long cutting edge life, it is especially suited for cutting dirty wood, treated wood, roots and hardwoods. The PD3 requires less frequent sharpening and must be re-sharpened with a formed diamond grinding wheel." (my emphasis)

3/8, low profile, 0.050 gauge.



Philbert

 

[Philbert]

Rapco

http://rapcoindustries.com/

Several different types, pitches, gauges, sequencing, etc.

"Sharpening of RAPCO™ carbide chain requires specialized diamond-abrasive tools"

Selection guide:
http://www.rapcoindustries.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/SelectionGuideV2DRAGON.pdf

Philbert

 

[Philbert]

Cutters Edge

Bullet Chain: http://www.cuttersedge.com/products/bullet_chain
Other Styles: http://www.cuttersedge.com/site/2049cutt/Carbided_Tipped_chains.pdf

"The BULLET® Chain is the first and only chain designed from the ground up specifically for fire department ventilation, forcible entry, and rescue operations. The BULLET® Chain's patented cutter is a solid piece of metal without bends or ground-out areas that cause weak points. The carbide insert is formulated specifically for fire department use. The sintered carbide insert creates a larger cutting surface and has a unique sheeting capability to reduce carbide breakage."



"You can only get your BULLET Chain repaired at the Cutters Edge factory or at a Cutters Edge dealer. Cutters Edge Saws and BULLET Chain are only sold through Fire Equipment dealers. We do not sell through chainsaw or lawn mower shops. The BULLET Chain requires a specially designed diamond sharpening wheel and a cooling and lubrication system to be sharpened properly."

Philbert

 

[Philbert]

Sharpening Carbide Chains

There always seems to be some confusion about sharpening carbide saw chains. Carbide cutters need special grinding wheels.

This is not helped when one of the popular manufacturers of CBN (cubic boron nitrate) wheels is called 'Diamond Wheel Inc.'! So I am linking, and quoting, a few things from their web pages. In general: CBN wheels are for steel (conventional) cutters. Diamond abrasive wheels are for carbide cutters. They are not interchangeable.

CBN For Steel Chains
http://www.diamondwheelinc.com/chain-saw-wheels.html

Diamond Chainsaw Wheels for CARBIDE Insert Chains Do not use with High Speed Steel!
http://www.diamondwheelinc.com/diamond-chain-saw-wheels-carbide.html

Philbert

 

[Philbert]

Carbide Chain of America

http://www.carbidechain.com/chains.php



"When selecting a chain, it is important to ensure that the chain purchased will be appropriate for the saw.
* Please note that not all saws are able to utilize the chains we make as some lack the power needed to effectively utilize carbide chain without damage.
Please refer to your owner's manual, contact a local saw retailer, or contact us direct to verify the chain size that is appropriate for your saw.

Below is a simple guide to determine what size saw we recommend for each size chain.
Saw Horsepower Chain Pitch Chain Gauge
Less Than 3 HP 3/8" .050"
3 HP-4HP 3/8" .063"
More Than 4HP .404" .063"

* We can make any of these chains to any length.
* We do not offer a carbide chain for saws that have 0.325" pitch, .050" gauge chain.
* .404" pitch, .063" gauge is the recommended size for rescue."

Philbert

 

[Philbert]

Chain-Serts

Harvester Saw Chain with Replaceable Carbide Cutters



http://chain-serts.com/

Philbert

 

[Crzybowhntr]

Great information. Thanks. I'd like to try one but the cost of a grinding wheel deters me.

 

[Philbert]

My local dealer sharpens them. For comparison, I think they charge about $7 for a conventional, 16" chain, and about $20 for a carbide loop. Might be OK if you need to sharpen less frequently?

Note that the hard, carbide inserts are sometimes chipped or damaged, rather than just dulled from wear. In those cases the links are simply replaced rather than repaired.

Philbert

 

[Chainsaw Addict]

Cutters Edge

http://www.cuttersedge.com/products/bullet_chain

"The BULLET[emoji768] Chain is the first and only chain designed from the ground up specifically for fire department ventilation, forcible entry, and rescue operations. The BULLET[emoji768] Chain's patented cutter is a solid piece of metal without bends or ground-out areas that cause weak points. The carbide insert is formulated specifically for fire department use. The sintered carbide insert creates a larger cutting surface and has a unique sheeting capability to reduce carbide breakage."

View attachment 47958

"You can only get your BULLET Chain repaired at the Cutters Edge factory or at a Cutters Edge dealer. Cutters Edge Saws and BULLET Chain are only sold through Fire Equipment dealers. We do not sell through chainsaw or lawn mower shops. The BULLET Chain requires a specially designed diamond sharpening wheel and a cooling and lubrication system to be sharpened properly."

Philbert

Lot of experience at fire department Cutter's Edge saws which are Jonsered 2171 Wrap I think. Used primarily to cut holes in roof for ventilation. Had the big external 2 element air filter. The Bullet carbide chains cut shingles, decking nails whatever. Maintenance shop put loops together when too many cutters broken. Used these for training but kept new chains on them on trucks.

Sent from my SM-N900P using Tapatalk

 

[Philbert]

How long do they hold up in that type of use?

Philbert

 

[Philbert]

*Not Indestructible!

"(Rapco) Important Points to Consider:

• Carbide chain is not indestructible!
• Make sure you have the chain designed for your application.
• Chain designed for wood cutting will be damaged by impacting with rock, stone, concrete, or hardened metals.
• Our tough carbide can withstand more impact but can still be damaged by impact with metals, or other hard objects."

"Cutters Edge BULLET® Chain is a carbide-tipped chain saw chain designed specifically for cutting most materials encountered during fire and rescue cutting. It is not indestructible and will incur breakage and get dull through normal use. BULLET® Chain can be sharpened and broken cutters replaced!"

Chain-Sert repair note: "*Peen rivets over with a hammer due to their toughness. Attempting to form Chain-Serts rivets over with a standard spinning tool may destroy your tool."

Philbert

 

[super3]

Couple yrs ago I got in on the last phase of a job that had around 200 stumps ( 6-30") to be cut off @ ground level.

Carbide chains similar to the Sabertooth that Philbert posted above purchased from ebay along with the el cheapo diamond bits for sharpening.

It took 3 bits to sharpen one chain.

Gregg @ Left Coast was offering a free try of the diamond bits he was now offering for sale and sent me one to try out.
I sharpened all 3 chains with it and it was still cutting fairly well.

More hook and lower rakers worked out much better also.

 

[dall]

Great information. Thanks. I'd like to try one but the cost of a grinding wheel deters me.

jayme i have a stihl 325 carbide chain i can bring if we ever get a chance to cut together i like its durability and why i have 2 now

 

[Philbert]

Carbide chains similar to the Sabertooth . . . along with the el cheapo diamond bits for sharpening.

Were these chains with solid carbide inserts soldered/brazed on, or carbide coated, like these?:
https://leftcoastsupplies.com/product/stay-sharp-carbide-coated-saw-chain/


Philbert

 

[Philbert]

Carbide Coated Chains

(description from an eBay seller)

“A customized “carbitron” process electronically impregnates titanium tungsten carbide into the surface of each cutting tooth, leaving a very hard coating that “will not” chip, flake, crack or become brittle. The .002 thick carbide coating can be sharpened the same as any standard chain saw chain.

Unlike the standard carbide tipped chain, the carbide coated chain uses a less expensive process of only replacing the chromium normally found layered on top of each cutter with carbide. Since it’s the top layer of carbide that actually does the cutting, this chain should “last 5 to 10 times longer” than the standard saw chain because you don’t have to sharpen it as often. The “carbitron” chain

Should not be confused with or replace true carbide tipped chain because it is not designed to go through the kind of obstructions firemen & others endure.”


Philbert

 

[Chainsaw Addict]

How long do they hold up in that type of use?

Philbert

Amazingly well. Inspected after each use. I don't know cost of new loops other than crazy. Oddly enough, they don't cut well in tree wood. Had also experimented with Stihl saws with their carbide but didn't hold up well. The Jonsered Cutters Edges Partner K saws and all gas tools started every day at morning truck checks. Idle to warm, wot, then idle again. Top off fuels and oil. Wear hearing protection.. Retired now. Best job ever!

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[super3]

Were these chains with solid carbide inserts soldered/brazed on, or carbide coated, like these?:
https://leftcoastsupplies.com/product/stay-sharp-carbide-coated-saw-chain/
View attachment 47979

Philbert

Yes, brazed on.

I have used the coated or Diamondized in the past. They held up real good and the ease of sharpening with a regular file is a plus.

 

[Crzybowhntr]

jayme i have a stihl 325 carbide chain i can bring if we ever get a chance to cut together i like its durability and why i have 2 now

Sounds good to me. You have a diamond wheel?

 

[dall]

no i bought a couple of the diamond burrs i dont use my grinder anymore