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Carbide Chains

Wilhelm

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! Most attached pictures are uncompressed 4MP and about 1.3MB each !

Stihl Picco Duro 3 , 3/8" LowProfile/Picco .050" 52DL , the test log was oak

Cutter geometry , these two pictures have been cropped to better show the carbide inserts:
Copy of P1030204.JPG Copy of P1030205.JPG

Loop weight:
P1030382.JPG

Generated chips:
CIMG2918.JPG

Kerf made by the chain:
CIMG2919.JPG
 
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Wilhelm

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! Most attached pictures are uncompressed 4MP and about 1.3MB each !

Stihl Rapid Duro 3 , 3/8" .058" 72DL , the test log was oak
First cut showing self feeding capabilities, second cut with pressure exerted on the front handle, third cut forced using the saws spikes as leverage.
Self feeding capabilities of this chain are very good, the chain also noodles very well.

Cutter geometry , these two pictures have been cropped to better show the carbide inserts:
Copy of P1030215.JPG Copy of P1030219.JPG

Loop weight:
P1030379.JPG

Generated chips:
CIMG2973.JPG

Kerf made by the chain:
CIMG2977.JPG
 
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Looks like from the US website description that one is
PICCO Duro -3/8 low profile, 0.050 gauge: https://www.stihlusa.com/products/chain-saws/specialty-saw-chains/pd3/, and one is
Rapid DURO 3 - .325, 0.058 gauge?: https://www.stihlusa.com/products/chain-saws/saw-chains/rd3/
Our STIHL US site does not show a 3/8 full pitch chain with carbide cutters (at least that I can find), but they may offer it over your way. No reason why they would not.



Photo of one chain a few posts above. The other received was a 'Bullet' chain (Post #4). Both heavy duty, heavily used, and designed for fire service use (i.e. cutting building materials instead of forestry / fire wood use). These will be used for training / show-and-tell use.

If
I was to order a carbide chain to try for trees, logs, etc., I would start with one of the STIHL chains, or one of the Rapco chains designed for this use. Rapco's 'Selection Guide' (Post #3) notes that some styles are better for certain applications, and they have some insight into this. I would probably budget for a modest ($100) diamond wheel for sharpening as well - my dealer charges a minimum of $20 to sharpen carbide loops, so that could pay for itself fairly quickly.

I am sure that there are better quality diamond wheels available if one does this on a continuing basis. I would also expect to need replacement cutters to periodically replace chipped carbide inserts, as grinding these back is different that with conventional, steel cutters.

Here is what I am interested in hearing from You (and others)! Specifically:
- the cutting speed of carbide saw chains, compared to stock, conventional chains (e.g. not ground to someone's racing profile); and,
- how the cutters hold up to chipping; a concern with the hard, potentially brittle, cutting edges.

Comments appear to suggest that these factors are related: a finer edge cuts faster, but is more susceptible to chipping, since there is less metal to support it. Minor dulling of the edges can be addressed via maintenance sharpening, but large chips (see photos in earlier post) essentially require replacement of the cutter.

Philbert
Re: chipping concern and 3/8, I looked at Stihl carbides on feebay some time ago. Seller had 3/8 as well but only green with the humped tie straps. I asked if available im Yellow. His reply that the cutters would chip too much without thr the green humped strap. idk

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Wilhelm

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Re: chipping concern and 3/8, I looked at Stihl carbides on feebay some time ago. Seller had 3/8 as well but only green with the humped tie straps. I asked if available im Yellow. His reply that the cutters would chip too much without thr the green humped strap. idk

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You don't need a yellow chain, Picco & Rapid Duro 3 are very aggressive cutting! ;)

P.S./EDIT:
Besides, You can cut the humps/shark fins off if You feel You don't like or want them. ;)
 

Philbert

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I have read that the bumpers were originally designed for smoother cutting; the reduced kickback potential was an unanticipated result. So, if the bumpers also reduce shock loading on the carbide cutters, there might be some logic to that explanation.

Philbert
 

Philbert

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A Forester chain site shows 'carbide insert' (smaller carbide) and 'full tooth carbide' (larger carbide) chains. They are offered in 3/8 low pro, .325, and 3/8 pitch versions, which may fit some saws / guide bars that other brands don't.
Screen shot 2017-01-18 at 10.44.44 PM.png Screen shot 2017-01-18 at 10.45.27 PM.png
Philbert
 

Wilhelm

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Solid Carbide isn't that expensive anymore, no reason to go cheap on the size of the carbide inserts!

The smaller inserts will wear sooner than the larger inserts because they lack resistance integrity.

All manufacturer marketing tricks.
 

Philbert

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Chain-Sert

IMG_6046.jpg
IMG_6047.jpg

Note how the tab on the drive link locks the carbide cutter in place. This gets tilted forward to remove / replace the carbide 'insert'.

Philbert
 

fordf150

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Anyone have experience with the rapco rescue chain? Got some projects I'm working on for fire departments and since rapco is the chain available to me I'm curious if it's worth the money or another brand would be better
 

Wilhelm

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Anyone have experience with the rapco rescue chain? Got some projects I'm working on for fire departments and since rapco is the chain available to me I'm curious if it's worth the money or another brand would be better
Send me one in 3/8" .058" 72DL and I'll test it for You - You have my addy! :rolleyes:

I had more run time on my Stihl RD3 yesterday, I like it so far, is nice for bucking and noodling.
No idea how it would behave cutting a hole through a roof though.

New RD3 clips are ready on my PC, have to up them to YouTube.
 

Wilhelm

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Dolmar PS-6400/20" with Stihl Rapid Duro 3 partially buried in fresh oak, bucking cuts:

Recording device Sony Ericsson Elm/J10i2

P.S.:
This was recorded yesterday.
That was my last log of my next winters firewood supply - now what!? :(
 

ffchewy17

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Anyone have experience with the rapco rescue chain? Got some projects I'm working on for fire departments and since rapco is the chain available to me I'm curious if it's worth the money or another brand would be better
What's the intended usage? Vent saw or general tree storm cleanup and they want a longer lasting chain?
We have used RApco chain, "bullet chain", stihl dur0 carbide, Tempest raptor chain, and CCA saber tooth. We have used .404 and .375 in most cutter styles. All of the chains will chip and throw teeth after one fire; either on the roof cut or for horizontal building access. If the department is planning on getting the chains they need 3 per saw, 1 on the saw , one backup in a saw bag on the unit and one at the station. The chains have to be sent out to be repaired and the turn around time is not that fast , about 7-10 days .

I babe a ton of info if you need any questions answered, pictures also
 

fordf150

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What's the intended usage? Vent saw or general tree storm cleanup and they want a longer lasting chain?
We have used RApco chain, "bullet chain", stihl dur0 carbide, Tempest raptor chain, and CCA saber tooth. We have used .404 and .375 in most cutter styles. All of the chains will chip and throw teeth after one fire; either on the roof cut or for horizontal building access. If the department is planning on getting the chains they need 3 per saw, 1 on the saw , one backup in a saw bag on the unit and one at the station. The chains have to be sent out to be repaired and the turn around time is not that fast , about 7-10 days .

I babe a ton of info if you need any questions answered, pictures also
I'm thinking of putting together saws for their brush truck but a couple departments are lacking a vent saw so a couple may end up in that application as well.... Really depends on which departments and how many take me up on the offer. Already got one on board for a general use saw that has standard chain but they are also interested in one with saw armor and carbide for on their brush truck.... They already have a quick vent but it's starting to show its age so maybe at some point it will need replaced

Edit: everything will be 3/8 because the saws in question are all going to Dolly 6100's.
 

ffchewy17

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I understand that the carbide cutters chip, or break off, and links frequently have to be replaced. Why can't this be done at the fire station?

Thanks.

Philbert

The carbide chips are brazed on ... I'm not sure of many people that would be able to do that with a steady hand. Most fireman tend to be good with equipment use, but are not concerned with the in depth maintenance of most of the tools. It's way easier for our guys to send the saw to logistics and pickup a spare saw for the truck.
 

ffchewy17

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I'm thinking of putting together saws for their brush truck but a couple departments are lacking a vent saw so a couple may end up in that application as well.... Really depends on which departments and how many take me up on the offer. Already got one on board for a general use saw that has standard chain but they are also interested in one with saw armor and carbide for on their brush truck.... They already have a quick vent but it's starting to show its age so maybe at some point it will need replaced

Edit: everything will be 3/8 because the saws in question are all going to Dolly 6100's.
We run 2x k950 , k1260, Husqvarna 575 ventmaster, stihl 461r, and stihl 044. That's the saw compliment for all 10 ladder trucks and the heavy rescue. The demo saws run diamond and carbide 14" blades. Two chainsaws are setup with carbide for vent/FE/RIT work and the stihl 044 is setup for wood only. We also have 30+ 044 for hurricane saws at our logistics.

I have run the 7900, 461r,575xpw,372xpw all set up for vent work.... all handled the same, I like a 404 carbide on the 461 the best. The 575's broke a lot , 372's felt a bit underpowered , 7900 worked great, but almost no manufacturer support.

A heavy bar , like the Cannon, is a must. Most times the saws will be used in terrible positions and will be wrenched on in the cut. A 20".404 is about the ideal bar length. i would give the crews a small maintenance class on cleaning, service, and startup procedures. It's amazing the misinformation people have about saw use and maintenance.
 

Drptrch

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We use 460's 20" .404 bullet or Rapco Terminators
6229f6b162f95b71c07c91e2cb2381b8.jpg

Top was a Razoo, cutter every link, not enough bite-when transitioning into wood members if making horizontal access, imo.
Bullet and warthog on circ saws
 

ffchewy17

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The tempest raptor chain has worked the best for us. I cut a roof last week on a commercial building that was rolled roofing over4" cellulose insulation and 1/2 decking. That a step cut for a 14" carbide demo blade, twice as much time. We used the ventmaster and it allowed us to make one complete cut, but the saw was out of service after the roof ops. The clutch and drive sprocket where completely gummed up with roofing material. Just a heads up on use and need for backup saws
 
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