Spinning up odd count loops

[Ezarb]

Couple questions for those who have experience making loops.

The scenario I'm going to present may have different variables depending on where you broke the roll last so for all intensive purposes, pretend the roll of chain is brand new.

Anyhow, when spinning up an odd count loop up, like a say a 91dl, you end up with your 91 count breaking directly on a tooth. If you go ahead & break right here without any foresight, you end up with single skip section & two right hand cutters in a row once everything is put together.

My question here is - will this small inconsistency cause the saw to pull to that side in a scenario where the bar is fully buried? (Like when cutting massive firewood rounds that need to be a precise length all the way around)

Additional question here -
Can you spin teeth/cutters back into loops with presets or is it only presets & drivers that are allowed to be spun by hand?

Thanks

 

[hacskaroly]

My question here is - will this small inconsistency cause the saw to pull to that side in a scenario where the bar is fully buried? (Like when cutting massive firewood rounds that need to be a precise length all the way around)

Additional question here -
Can you spin teeth/cutters back into loops with presets or is it only presets & drivers that are allowed to be spun by hand?

No, you will not have any issues with two right hand or two left hand cutters next to each other. Loops come precut from Stihl and Husqvarna in the box like that. If the entire chain is righhanded or left handed cutters, then you may run into an issue.

You can punch out bad cutters, say you hit a rock and take out six cutters. You can then punch out the bad section and butterfly in a new section. The one thing you need to account for before using it is filing down the new cutters/depth gauges (rakers) to match the existing ones so you don't have any differences when the loop is spinning.

I have knocked out a driver or two on chains that have stretched too far, but you have to inspect the entire loop to make sure you don't have any tie straps, rivets or any other components with wear failure that will make the chain unsafe to use.

 

[Ezarb]

Hello there. Thanks for the update.

Oh yes, that's right, the premade 91dl's I've purchased in the past have the same thing going on. I had always assumed it was whatever dealer i purchased through, making loops & reselling them like that. What was bugging me is, is that in the past I thought I had come up with a solution to remedy the double right/left scenario, but it must have been a different scenario as I think it's just the way the math works out for this length.

Gotchya on spinning teeth. I was unsure whether it required a special anvil to avoid what I thought may be clearance issues (as the teeth aren't flat like drivers or presets). Obviously, I haven't attempted it yet, hence the my novice type questions.

While I'm here I got one more ask.
I've seen a few threads regarding rivet edges having small cracks. I've noticed the same on a lot of my loops. However, what's odd is this only happens on my Oregon loops, my STIHL loops come out normal. Moreover, I'm using the Oregon (light grey & red) spinner so you'd figure it would be the other way around. I wonder if the Oregon Duramax spinner spins them cleaner..

 

[PA Dan]

I haven't seen any issue with the two cutter on the same side at all.

When spinning up rivets I have seen some cracks and haven't had any issues with those either.

 

[Philbert]

I prefer an extra space between cutters, rather than 2 cutters back-to-back, when spinning up odd numbered loops, if I have the choice.

Yes, you can spin in a salvaged cutter / tooth like you would a tie strap, in most cases.

Cracked rivet heads usually result from not placing a drop of oil on the rivet, prior to spinning (I place a dab of wheel bearing grease, with a toothpick); or,

not spinning enough. Try more spins as you apply pressure more slowly with the other hand.

Philbert

 

[hacskaroly]

I've seen a few threads regarding rivet edges having small cracks. I've noticed the same on a lot of my loops.

@Philbert hit is spot on....yes, you can delete one of the cutters facing the same way, its almost like having a very small section of skip chain, I think you can go either way, which ever you are more comfortable with.

As for cracked rivet heads, I saw that more when people didn't use oil on them and cranked them way too fast. Nobody likes to be reamed down without lube. Put some oil (I use the 3-in-1 type) on the rivet and evenly add pressure while spinning and they should come out fine. I think some small cracks will be fine, but if you go too far and the cracks are really big, then it is probably best to punch out that link and try it again. Burning a few cents on a new tie strap sure beats a chain flying apart, but taking your time and using oil in the process, you reduce the potential of issues. I didn't see the cracking issue so much on .404 or 3/8 chain, more so on the smaller ones 3/8p/lp and sometimes on the .325.

 

[Ezarb]

Thanks for the responses.
I use magic cutting oil. I usually feel like I'm spinning too much, yet if I do not go as far as I i do, I feel as if it isn't complete (even though it probably is)

"Complete" as in - I've been told the recommended amount of spinning is when you can't catch a fingernail on it's edge. However, I can catch my nail on all the factory Oregon rivets, so maybe I'm going too far. (I have a feeling if I dug into the weeds on this, the proper amount would vary greatly depending on who i talk to)

 

[hacskaroly]

"Complete" as in - I've been told the recommended amount of spinning is when you can't catch a fingernail on it's edge. However, I can catch my nail on all the factory Oregon rivets, so maybe I'm going too far.

If you take a look at factory rivets, they are relatively flat and mushroomed out without cracking (for the most part - sometimes can't be helped). If you go too far then you weaken the rivet and risk the head coming off. The more you do it the more you will get the feel and the eye for it. You are looking for a low profile on the rivet (less drag) and still flexibility when you work it afterwards.

(I have a feeling if I dug into the weeds on this, the proper amount would vary greatly depending on who i talk to)

So true in just about every aspect regarding chainsaws....lots of opinions!!

 

[Philbert]

I use magic cutting oil.

Try a tiny dab of grease. Even the stuff you lube your drive sprocket (or nose bearing if you do) with.

I put some wheel bearing grease into an old Rx container, and keep that, with a few toothpicks inside, next to my spinner.

Philbert

 

[singinwoodwackr]

Just don’t put the cutters on backwards or the straps on upside down.
DAMHIKT

 

[EFSM]

@Philbert hit is spot on....yes, you can delete one of the cutters facing the same way, its almost like having a very small section of skip chain, I think you can go either way, which ever you are more comfortable with.

As for cracked rivet heads, I saw that more when people didn't use oil on them and cranked them way too fast. Nobody likes to be reamed down without lube. Put some oil (I use the 3-in-1 type) on the rivet and evenly add pressure while spinning and they should come out fine. I think some small cracks will be fine, but if you go too far and the cracks are really big, then it is probably best to punch out that link and try it again. Burning a few cents on a new tie strap sure beats a chain flying apart, but taking your time and using oil in the process, you reduce the potential of issues. I didn't see the cracking issue so much on .404 or 3/8 chain, more so on the smaller ones 3/8p/lp and sometimes on the .325.

How much cracking happens also has to do with how much rivet sticks through the strap. Oregon rivets have way more sticking through than Stihl, so it’s way harder to get a factory look. Madsens got some of Oregon’s old factory rivet spinners (they might still have them) and they often couldn’t find the splice after assembling a loop.

 

[heimannm]

Regarding the first question. unless the number of drive links is divisible by 4, you will end up with either a blank space (odd DL count, skip like) or two cutters in a row(even DL count). Having two cutters in a row will have no noticeable impact on the chain cutting straight, and the double cutters or blank space gives you a good place to start when sharpening a chain...

Mark

 

[Ezarb]

Good info guys.

@hacskaroly
Aside from wanting them to look factory, drag is my main concern (albeit maybe moot). Unless completely mushroomed flat, the edge that gets left on Oregon presets is always a hard rather "sharp" 90°, whereas the factory's have a nice rounded edge even though they protrude. Its really just that one factor causes me to second guess whether i want to keep spinning.

@EFSM
Next time I spin one up, I'll refrain from trying to get it perfect & see if that helps with the cracking. (So far I've run about 75ft doing it the way I have & haven't had any come apart.. Knock on wood)

Do you happen to know what the spinners were called? Is it the Duramax model or something older. I betchya philbert owns one!

@heimannm
Thanks for the math lesson! It finally dawned on me a few days ago after starting at the chain 10 different ways from sunday thinking there just must be a way to make it happen.. "If I just remove one here, add one there.. break a new loop here .... Duhh, dude the math just doesn't work "

@Philbert
I will try grease instead, I think it'll be less messy too. Thanks for the pro tip!

 

[Philbert]

Is it the Duramax model or something older. I betchya philbert owns one!

The shape of the spinner anvil can be a factor.

On A.S. some guys commented on problems spinning 3/8 low profile (‘Picco’) presets, saying that some anvils bottomed out on the tie strap before fully forming the rivet head.

Some tried grinding off a little of the anvil to compensate.

I was told, by a knowledgeable guy, that it’s not just about mushrooming the rivet head, but that you also want the soft, rivet ‘hubs’ to expand and fill the rivet holes in the tie strap.



This makes all movement happen where the hardened ‘flange’ bearing meets the drive link, instead of at the tie strap, which leads to ‘chain stretch’.

Philbert

 

[hacskaroly]

On A.S. some guys commented on problems spinning 3/8 low profile (‘Picco’) presets, saying that some anvils bottomed out on the tie strap before fully forming the rivet head.

I can vouch for this, the most problems I have had were with the 3/8 picco / low profile, I have to take more time with it than with 3/8 or even .325. I have to go slow, use oil and watch is so I don't over flatten it or start grooving out the tie strap.

 

[singinwoodwackr]

I can vouch for this, the most problems I have had were with the 3/8 picco / low profile, I have to take more time with it than with 3/8 or even .325. I have to go slow, use oil and watch is so I don't over flatten it or start grooving out the tie strap.

Or, go too far and seize the links
Then, start over…

 

[hacskaroly]

Or, go too far and seize the links
Then, start over…

Oh yeah...I have repunched my fair share of links

 

[Ezarb]

There's Philbert With the instantaneous on demand content! Good info my friend

Regarding people seizing links, oddly I've probably over spun most of my presets & I'm always expecting it to bind things up, but for some odd reason it hasn't happened yet.

 

[EFSM]

I can vouch for this, the most problems I have had were with the 3/8 picco / low profile, I have to take more time with it than with 3/8 or even .325. I have to go slow, use oil and watch is so I don't over flatten it or start grooving out the tie strap.

Are you using a different size anvil for LP chain vs big 3/8? They require a different size.

 

[hacskaroly]

Are you using a different size anvil for LP chain vs big 3/8? They require a different size.

Yes, I have two different sized Oregon anvils.

I have accidentally used the larger anvil a couple of times and you find out right away that it won't work on the LP chain...