Church Disaster Response Team Chainsaws Setup

[Saw_Squatch]

If I were you I'd try to spend some time on the phone with @Philbert if he's so willing. This kinda scenario is right in his wheelhouse. I rode with him to the Iowa gtg last year and was very intrigued by all the strategies they use to safely manage equipment and volunteers in disaster relief situations.

If Mr. @Philbert pops on here I'd definitely like to hear what he has to say, same with anyone else here with Wildland Fire, EMS, FEMA experience, or other leadership experience with disaster relief.

 

[dahmer]

I'm not sure if it's coincidental but myself along with all the guys that I work with or have worked with have some type of battle wound from a chainsaw. And those wounds came from smaller wood/branches and smaller saws. People get comfortable with smaller saws and smaller wood and do things they wouldn't with a bigger saw in bigger wood.

Ain’t that the truth. Got stupid one day on a 2” limb that was under tension and I didn’t pay attention. In that millisecond it took to strike I had time to think “Oh chit!” Almost put me down. Called my buddy who met me on the road when I walked out. 8 stitches later in my head I got smarter. I hate those brutal learning lessons.

 

[countryhog]

Hate to rain on your parade. But because your intentions are good there’re some things you need to consider.
If this response team is church affiliated you are subject to damages in case of injury. In that regard gotta couple suggestions
1. Make all team members take a saw course before the skills are needed. Can be one you develop or not. Or require them to read readily available publications and complete a written, or verbal, exam.
2. Require a liability release
3. Do NOT let a non-educated novice touch a saw. I have significant experience and have scars from using saws. Experience is no guarantee of not getting hurt.
4. Require use of PPE before starting a saw.
5. Be, or designate, an observer to guard against unsafe practices. This persons ONLY job should be looking out.
6. keep a fully stocked first aid kit handy and know how to use it. Everyone should know how to provide first aid.

in general, I don’t think organizing a group of inexperienced people and providing them with dangerous tools is the best idea I’ve ever heard. Training, practice, and supervision are imperative.
Helping others is admirable but if someone gets hurt cause they don’t know what they’re doing it just negates the good. Just sayin.

 

[jacob j.]

The best thing you can do for the guys in your church group is to get them into some kind of formal training if there's something available in your area. Most state forestry departments will put
on a formal chainsaw safety/falling/bucking/operator's course for civic groups, such as volunteer associations and church groups. We used some volunteers when I was on Hurricane Sandy
but we put them through training onsite and then always had state or federal supervisors with them.

 

[Stevetheboatguy]

The best thing you can do for the guys in your church group is to get them into some kind of formal training if there's something available in your area. Most state forestry departments will put
on a formal chainsaw safety/falling/bucking/operator's course for civic groups, such as volunteer associations and church groups. We used some volunteers when I was on Hurricane Sandy
but we put them through training onsite and then always had state or federal supervisors with them.

Best answer stuff right there



Steven

 

[Saw_Squatch]

Hate to rain on your parade. But because your intentions are good there’re some things you need to consider.
If this response team is church affiliated you are subject to damages in case of injury. In that regard gotta couple suggestions
1. Make all team members take a saw course before the skills are needed. Can be one you develop or not. Or require them to read readily available publications and complete a written, or verbal, exam.
2. Require a liability release
3. Do NOT let a non-educated novice touch a saw. I have significant experience and have scars from using saws. Experience is no guarantee of not getting hurt.
4. Require use of PPE before starting a saw.
5. Be, or designate, an observer to guard against unsafe practices. This persons ONLY job should be looking out.
6. keep a fully stocked first aid kit handy and know how to use it. Everyone should know how to provide first aid.

in general, I don’t think organizing a group of inexperienced people and providing them with dangerous tools is the best idea I’ve ever heard. Training, practice, and supervision are imperative.
Helping others is admirable but if someone gets hurt cause they don’t know what they’re doing it just negates the good. Just sayin.

I appreciate you putting all that into words, that area of things has definitely been discussed and I agree wholeheartedly and have even made quite a few of these points myself. I should make it known I'm in communication with the leadership structure on this and I'm more or less the guy people come to for the chainsaws, wood cutting, wilderness medical stuff (I'm a certified wilderness first responder) but again this is really good stuff to bring to them!

 

[Saw_Squatch]

The best thing you can do for the guys in your church group is to get them into some kind of formal training if there's something available in your area. Most state forestry departments will put
on a formal chainsaw safety/falling/bucking/operator's course for civic groups, such as volunteer associations and church groups. We used some volunteers when I was on Hurricane Sandy
but we put them through training onsite and then always had state or federal supervisors with them.

I got some faller friends with the BIA that might be able to help, otherwise maybe have some kind of a USFS S-212 deal. Maybe even make it big enough to be a community course thing to help landscapers and firewood cutters have a refresher

 

[Philbert]

I have done this for about 20 years, with a variety of volunteer groups. Each has its own culture, but training before an event is very important. Even guys who have used saws for many years without incident may have different methods and approaches that can cause problems when working closely with other people, and other expectations. Some groups require each volunteer to take their orientation / training, even if experienced, just to 'baseline' everyone to common expectations and practices.

Disaster cutting can be very different than normal firewood cutting, due to: entangled debris, complex tension / compression / torsion forces, etc., along with just working in disaster environments. A good way to train groups is by doing service projects, such as clearing trails, helping out in parks, or finding areas where storms went through perviously, but were never fully cleaned up. It is hard to recreate a blow down scenario for training, but some gnarly situations may still be found 'back in the woods', even several years after a storm. Since you are with a church, there may be camps affiliated with your congregation or movement that might offer some 'win-win' training / service project opportunities.

PPE, as noted, should be mandatory. Whether your group provides this for shared use, or requires volunteers to provide their own, is up to you. But determine what your minimum standards are.

Back to your original question about equipment, you have a few options:
1. Each member brings their own, personal saw(s) and is responsible for it (them);
2. Your organization provides and maintains saws and related equipment;
3. Some combination of the above.

Note that disasters are hard on equipment. Volunteers are hard on equipment. Anytime things are shared, they are used harder than when used individually. This is not intentional misuse, but be prepared for the triple whammy. I can't stress enough that immediately following a disaster chainsaw repair and maintenance parts will be impossible to find. Plan on bringing your own supply of spare parts and consumables, including: spare guide bars, sprockets, spark plugs, air filters, fuel filters, starter rope, bar nuts, chains, files, fuel, bar oil, etc. Standardizing on a few models of saws makes this easier, as well as simplifies training of new members. Consider spare parts for your PPE too.

Some groups I have worked with bring lots of extra chains, and clean up the damaged ones when they get back home. Some groups bring a grinder into the field and sharpen / repair chains each night. Some rely only on files. But figure that stuff out ahead of time, as local dealers will be picked clean and backed up.

I am open to most brands of chainsaws. Some groups I know started with less expensive saws due to the initial costs, but quickly realized that 'Pro' grade saws hold up better to the hard use; are easier to maintain / repair in the field; and have a wider availability of parts. Remember that you may be traveling far from your local dealer, so brands with national support are a big plus. A common combo for volunteer groups is:
Several STIHL MS260/261 saws with 16" or 18" bars (pick one) for general cutting;
A few STIHL MS460/461/462 saws with 24" bars, along with 28", 30", or 32" bars (pick one) and skip tooth chains, for larger trees;
A STIHL HT131 or ECHO PPT2620H powered pole saw.

Along with axes, wedges, a manual pole saw (Jameson or Marvin), anvil-style compound loppers, small hand saws, first aid kits, cleaning / maintenance tools, stump vises, throw ropes and a bull rope, etc. I like an air compressor for daily cleaning. Having a vise mounted in an equipment trailer, and some fold up tables to work on are nice bonuses.

Network as much as you can with other volunteer groups doing similar work. You don't have to make the same choices that they did, but try to learn from their experiences. A good source is 'VOAD' (Voluntary Organizations Active in Disaster), which includes a number of faith-based sawyer response groups.

National VOAD - https://www.nvoad.org/
Wisconsin VOAD - https://wivoad.communityos.org/cms/home
Illinois VOAD - https://ilvoad.communityos.org/cms/home

Send me a PM if you want to discuss this further, and maybe set up a phone call: too much to type! Happy to share any resources I have.

Philbert

 

[Saw_Squatch]

I have done this for about 20 years, with a variety of volunteer groups. Each has its own culture, but training before an event is very important. Even guys who have used saws for many years without incident may have different methods and approaches that can cause problems when working closely with other people, and other expectations. Some groups require each volunteer to take their orientation / training, even if experienced, just to 'baseline' everyone to common expectations and practices.

Disaster cutting can be very different than normal firewood cutting, due to: entangled debris, complex tension / compression / torsion forces, etc., along with just working in disaster environments. A good way to train groups is by doing service projects, such as clearing trails, helping out in parks, or finding areas where storms went through perviously, but were never fully cleaned up. It is hard to recreate a blow down scenario for training, but some gnarly situations may still be found 'back in the woods', even several years after a storm. Since you are with a church, there may be camps affiliated with your congregation or movement that might offer some 'win-win' training / service project opportunities.

PPE, as noted, should be mandatory. Whether your group provides this for shared use, or requires volunteers to provide their own, is up to you. But determine what your minimum standards are.

Back to your original question about equipment, you have a few options:
1. Each member brings their own, personal saw(s) and is responsible for it (them);
2. Your organization provides and maintains saws and related equipment;
3. Some combination of the above.

Note that disasters are hard on equipment. Volunteers are hard on equipment. Anytime things are shared, they are used harder than when used individually. This is not intentional misuse, but be prepared for the triple whammy. I can't stress enough that immediately following a disaster chainsaw repair and maintenance parts will be impossible to find. Plan on bringing your own supply of spare parts and consumables, including: spare guide bars, sprockets, spark plugs, air filters, fuel filters, starter rope, bar nuts, chains, files, fuel, bar oil, etc. Standardizing on a few models of saws makes this easier, as well as simplifies training of new members. Consider spare parts for your PPE too.

Some groups I have worked with bring lots of extra chains, and clean up the damaged ones when they get back home. Some groups bring a grinder into the field and sharpen / repair chains each night. Some rely only on files. But figure that stuff out ahead of time, as local dealers will be picked clean and backed up.

I am open to most brands of chainsaws. Some groups I know started with less expensive saws due to the initial costs, but quickly realized that 'Pro' grade saws hold up better to the hard use; are easier to maintain / repair in the field; and have a wider availability of parts. Remember that you may be traveling far from your local dealer, so brands with national support are a big plus. A common combo for volunteer groups is:
Several STIHL MS260/261 saws with 16" or 18" bars (pick one) for general cutting;
A few STIHL MS460/461/462 saws with 24" bars, along with 28", 30", or 32" bars (pick one) and skip tooth chains, for larger trees;
A STIHL HT131 or ECHO PPT2620H powered pole saw.

Along with axes, wedges, a manual pole saw (Jameson or Marvin), anvil-style compound loppers, small hand saws, first aid kits, cleaning / maintenance tools, stump vises, throw ropes and a bull rope, etc. I like an air compressor for daily cleaning. Having a vise mounted in an equipment trailer, and some fold up tables to work on are nice bonuses.

Network as much as you can with other volunteer groups doing similar work. You don't have to make the same choices that they did, but try to learn from their experiences. A good source is 'VOAD' (Voluntary Organizations Active in Disaster), which includes a number of faith-based sawyer response groups.

National VOAD - https://www.nvoad.org/
Wisconsin VOAD - https://wivoad.communityos.org/cms/home
Illinois VOAD - https://ilvoad.communityos.org/cms/home

Send me a PM if you want to discuss this further, and maybe set up a phone call: too much to type! Happy to share any resources I have.

Philbert

That response was better than anything I could have hoped for going into this! I will definitely be in contact with you as I hear back from other people. As far as a public reply I'm curious what your thoughts were on sticking with more affordable saws at the start to save money? I was looking at farm and ranch saws around 60-65cc or less and actually really looking hard at the echo 590 and 490 for their pro-sumer construction and home depot support. I was also thinking along the husky 450-460 rancher or the Stihl 291/391 options?

 

[ammoaddict]

Guess I hadn't thought about that, good call. Maybe have a pole saw instead or something

A polesaw would be good for broken branches that are hanging down. Not really handy for a blown down tree.

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[AKJonsereds]

Be sure to contact your local dealers. My uncle’s church decided to get into disaster relief and they started with chainsaws. Stihl donated a whole setup. Seems like there were several smaller saws, 3x 361, a 461 and a monster (can’t remember if it was a 661?), as well as a pole saw and everything needed to keep them running. They keep it in a trailer ready to go at all times. Now they have a couple other trailers set up for other disasters. Everyone involved takes training courses but in reality, he said only a few guys cutting keeps everyone else busy. Only one guy touches the two big saws.

Anyways, it is a great idea, keep it up!

 

[Saw_Squatch]

Be sure to contact your local dealers. My uncle’s church decided to get into disaster relief and they started with chainsaws. Stihl donated a whole setup. Seems like there were several smaller saws, 3x 361, a 461 and a monster (can’t remember if it was a 661?), as well as a pole saw and everything needed to keep them running. They keep it in a trailer ready to go at all times. Now they have a couple other trailers set up for other disasters. Everyone involved takes training courses but in reality, he said only a few guys cutting keeps everyone else busy. Only one guy touches the two big saws.

Anyways, it is a great idea, keep it up!

That's awesome I can't imagine a small group like us getting anything like that but that'd be amazing

 

[ammoaddict]

Be sure to contact your local dealers. My uncle’s church decided to get into disaster relief and they started with chainsaws. Stihl donated a whole setup. Seems like there were several smaller saws, 3x 361, a 461 and a monster (can’t remember if it was a 661?), as well as a pole saw and everything needed to keep them running. They keep it in a trailer ready to go at all times. Now they have a couple other trailers set up for other disasters. Everyone involved takes training courses but in reality, he said only a few guys cutting keeps everyone else busy. Only one guy touches the two big saws.

Anyways, it is a great idea, keep it up!

We started one at our church. I contacted Stihl and ask about saws. They told me they did not donate saws but we could get a discount if we provided our nonprofit information.

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[Philbert]

I'm curious what your thoughts were on sticking with more affordable saws at the start to save money? I was looking at farm and ranch saws around 60-65cc or less and actually really looking hard at the echo 590 and 490 for their pro-sumer construction and home depot support. I was also thinking along the husky 450-460 rancher or the Stihl 291/391 options?

A lot of wood has been cut with Craftsman Poulan, and 'homeowner grade' saws for many years. We used some 'mid grade' MS250 saws and ran the snot out of them for several years, before upgrading to the 'Pro' saws.

We learned to do our own field maintenance, and that is something you should consider, regardless of which saws you choose. Home Depot and Lowes do not perform warranty service, as I understand, but send it out, which can take a long time, especially during a disaster. Better to have a good relationship with a servicing dealer who can help you out when needed. BTW, if you look at the saws Home Depot sells, you will see 'Homelite', 'Ryobi', and some lower end 'ECHO's; if you look at the saws Home Depot rents, you will see 'Makitas'! That should give you an idea of what holds up to heavier use by multiple users. Home Depot also sells used rental saws, but that can be a hunt, unless you get lucky.

Sometimes 'factory reconditioned' (returned) chainsaws in the Husqvarna models you mentioned are periodically offered at a discount by places like Northern Tool or VMInnovations. You may be able to buy several, identical models saws on a smaller budget, but these places are not the place to get parts or service. In our region (I live to the left of you in Minnesota), Menard's consistently has the cheapest retail prices on Oregon chain. Some on-line places offer good prices if you plan ahead, like Bailey's periodic 'buy 10 loops for $100' sales of their rebranded Carlton chain.

We have never been able to get STIHL to donate saws, but the midwest regional distributor offers something like a 20% discount on saws, chaps, and certain items to qualified non-profits. A local dealer may or may not offer discounts - they get asked a lot.

Philbert

 

[Philbert]

A polesaw would be good for broken branches that are hanging down. Not really handy for a blown down tree.

I use a pole saw a lot for storm clean up work. When I have a tangle of blown down trees, it lets me clear away all of the non-supporting branches and limbs first, providing a clearer picture of the situation, where the forces are, etc. It lets me clear escape paths for accessing the larger portions of the trees. It lets me horizontally probe / test / release tension on limbs from 10 feet away, instead of having to wade in.

Some storm cleanup is basic bucking and limbing of fallen trees. Some is like playing an oversized version of 'pick-up-sticks', where one cut causes something else to move 30 feet away, so it is good to have multiple tools.

A powered pole saw is a real arm saver for overhead and larger limbs. Sectional, manual, pruning poles allow a higher reach, and are helpful when (not 'if') you get your powered one stuck overhead!

These are some examples where I happened to have photos, but they are not necessarily the 'worst'. Lots of times building (or other) debris will be entangled and needs to be carefully separated out.

Philbert





Philbert

 

[ammoaddict]

I use a pole saw a lot for storm clean up work. When I have a tangle of blown down trees, it lets me clear away all of the non-supporting branches and limbs first, providing a clearer picture of the situation, where the forces are, etc. It lets me clear escape paths for accessing the larger portions of the trees. It lets me horizontally probe / test / release tension on limbs from 10 feet away, instead of having to wade in.

Some storm cleanup is basic bucking and limbing of fallen trees. Some is like playing an oversized version of 'pick-up-sticks', where one cut causes something else to move 30 feet away, so it is good to have multiple tools.

A powered pole saw is a real arm saver for overhead and larger limbs. Sectional, manual, pruning poles allow a higher reach, and are helpful when (not 'if') you get your powered one stuck overhead!

These are some examples where I happened to have photos, but they are not necessarily the 'worst'. Lots of times building (or other) debris will be entangled and needs to be carefully separated out.

Philbert

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Philbert

Good points.

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[Onan18]

Personally I would go with three Husqvarna 460s. Two with 20" bars and one with a 24" so chains are easy to get (72 DL on the 20" and 84 DL on the 24").