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A friend pointed to a video showing a NEW hop up technic

afleetcommand

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LESS compression. Of course I hate generalities, and as an operator I can make a saw look faster or slower with technic or chain grinds...
But here is quantitative therefore absolute proof of why more compression doesn't help or by extension lower compression makes for a faster saw :)

 

davidwyby

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I only watched the short compare in the wood part.

I’m willing to bet @Red97 can show more tq with compression.

I also bet that in a felling situation the higher compression results in more forgiveness for being heavy handed on the dogs. Low rpm grunt.

In a 4 stroke engine, if you increase air flow and don’t increase compression, you lose bottom end/throttle response.

Also I think he used a popup piston which may hurt perf (air flow) and negate the compression, for speed anyway.
 

Stump Shot

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He can quantitate all he likes, however, JUST the compression isn't the only thing that changes when installing a pop-up piston, the flow characteristics of the upper transfers are also altered, changing the efficiency of the loop scavenging effect. Mostly in the primary clearing of spent gasses from the top of the piston. It doesn't take a big imagination to imagine this especially after seeing wash patterns pop-ups create or the power created that never impressed me and is why I don't mess with them, as flat tops so better(here's your sign)
If you're going to make a decision about compression a better test should be devised, that's all I'm saying here, then going from a flat top to a pop-up, there's more going on than reading a gauge.
My thoughts lean to cutting the top off the cylinder and making a separate head that could have the combustion chamber turned down in stages and ran between those stages to really see what is happening and what's going on with just compression and compression alone, thus eliminating any other changes that go along with piston or cylinder alterations.
A simpler test could be possible with using one ring and grinding it down to increase the end gap to relieve compression.
Then again, having changed out countless worn-out sets of rings producing low compression, replacing them with new ring sets has always resulted in a better running saw.
Now someone is going to chime in and say, hey Stump Shot, race saws don't have high compression and look how fast they go. True. No load or low load speed can be increased with low compression. I started up and old completely worn out saw with no compression(took a bit of coaxing to start it) and it screamed until it quit making noise before I could shut it down. If a hair would have hit the chain that would have probably stopped it. Most race saws get by from being very large and the load applied fairly small. Increase the load and the cut speed will reduce dramatically.
Now that I've nearly written a book, do I believe super duper ultra high compression is everything, No I don't. Do I believe a bump in compression from stock is helpful, yes I do. Do I believe there is one number in PSI that is key to making power, no I do not, as engine sizes change as well as bore and stroke combinations, it's a variable number at best. Do I think it's interesting and even fun to mechanic on saws and find out for myself how things change from making alterations to the running components of the saw, absolutely. Do I have some ideas of what makes things tick, I'd hope after all the testing I've done over the years has learned me the tools of knowledge to allow me to work. What I really think the most is if you want to know something bad enough, try it out for yourself, then you'll really know something of use and can transpolate to the work you're doing rather than rely on someone else's efforts that may be different than your own for any number of reasons.
Carry on...
 

Squish9

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If he is a friend of yours can you please teach him how to sharpen chain. I have seen a few of his attempts to out cut new C83 and he is clearly lost.

A 7/32 file, 30 across, 10 down, side plate at 70-75, top plate cutting angle between 55-60, depth gauges with a husky progressive gauge. Forget about the gullet , it doesn't matter. Just focus on the part that actually cuts wood.

It would make his videos much less painful to watch.
 

Stump Shot

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@Armbru84 can tell you that if one of his fast race saws catches a knot, it loses the race...
I can tell you that on a stock saw, the operators notice something is wrong and want it looked at right around 130 PSI when I check it. New ring and away they go again...
 

afleetcommand

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Surprised no one noticed the difference in RPM's :) I can take a fast saw, push on it until it's out of the power band and it will look slow as compared to a lessor saw operated in it's power curve. Going from 120 to 140 isn't going to be enough to over come the differences in technic and chain should someone want to make a point.
 

Ketchup

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Clearly the higher compression saw had a less consistent run. He dawged it. Twice. In a knot.

Also @Stumpshot is right. Sub 130psi is usually running very badly. I doubt NL’s compression measurement.

He doesn’t say what else was done to the saw either. Just that it has a 96 degree exhaust that he tosses a popup in. What squish numbers are we looking at? Did he even open up the muffler? Maybe it’s just a dog because he took the exhaust too high? Did he raise the transfers? Is he also running a low intake? Does he really think a 24” bar is ideal for a 59cc saw?

I feel like he’s outside the power band for a 590 and trying to make performance judgements.
He should do more tests. Make sure his comp measurements are accurate. Use a smaller bar. Make a lot more cuts.

And that still doesn’t account for the questions around a popup.

Good on him for trying but he needs a stronger experiment.
 

davidwyby

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I think a more proper test technique wise would be to one hand it. Get the chain just right so it doesn’t 4 stroke. I bet with more compression it could pull a more aggressive chain at the same rpm…if the popup isn’t fouling things up.


While back I think project farm did a chain test. He hung a weight from the bar tip to make the feed pressure consistent. That’s what gave me my idea for the “chassis dyno”. Maybe it’s more like a drag strip…
 

drf256

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As usual, too many variables to draw any honest conclusions.

The 590/620 is a relatively long stroke 60cc saw. A 96* ex roof would be akin to a 98-99 in, let’s say, a Stihl 036. I’m talking about physical height from the exhaust roof to the band. If you got your transfers right and you can flow well, you’re losing swept volume with that low of an exhaust roof IMHO. Not sure if squish was the same either. I’ve seen AM pistons off quite a bit, even meteors.

A 24/25” bar isn’t optimal on a 60cc saw IMHO either. Granted, it loads the saw pretty well.

You need a lot more that one cut to make any real comparison. Plus, as pointed out above, adding a popup changes more than just compression.

Static and dynamic compression are 2 different animals. For all I know, the popup was impeding transfer flow and he actually had less dynamic compression than he did with the flat top at lower static compression.

Compression just adds heat to the charge for more complete and faster burning. Sometimes more is needed and sometimes it isn’t. It’s just converting kinetic into thermal energy. If more isn’t needed to have efficient combustion, you are just effectively leaning a saw out and increasing parasitic drag on the saw’s engine.

As above, entertaining and work and expense on his part, but I’m not sure that he actually proved anything at all.
 

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I do appreciate him trying to learn for himself instead of just taking conventional wisdom as gospel. I run into this all the time. I often question what others say, but my own tests aren’t great. I flounder around and eventually get enough experience to either understand what I was being told or come to a different conclusion. This engine stuff is foggy magic.
 

Stump Shot

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That video would be neat to see if he would have ran it at say 130psi vs 230psi with a flat top piston and the timing numbers the same.
Hmm... :thinking: again, changing the timing also changes the port mapping thereby manipulating the volumetric efficiencies of the test, unfortunately. :(

I do appreciate him trying to learn for himself instead of just taking conventional wisdom as gospel. I run into this all the time. I often question what others say, but my own tests aren’t great. I flounder around and eventually get enough experience to either understand what I was being told or come to a different conclusion. This engine stuff is foggy magic.
Always a good idea to think things through for yourself before acting upon what you heard. A buddy or mentor if you will that you can bouce things off of can be of great help. Even so, there is no better teacher than two hands getting in there and finding out for one's self. Even if we fail at what we're trying to accomplish, this is just one step closer to success. :)
 
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