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372XP/OE - Fix RWJ4 or Swap for 390XP Carb?

XP_Slinger

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They will due to the smaller venturi over the walbro HD12. For me being a firewood hack ill take reliability over max performance. But in production, time is money.

Thinning or half-shafting the throttle and choke helps the c3m breathe better.
Count me in the hack club. Time isn’t money for me usually, and even when it is a faster saw isn’t what matters to me. Simply don’t like to go backwards in performance. It’s not behind by much according to my certified and bonified dyno hands lmao!
 

huskyboy

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Long overdue update on this thread. Installed the Zama C3M and my saw finally acts like it should. No problems whatsoever with wandering tune or fat mix in the mid range. I do however feel like the saw lost a little bit of power so I’m going to do a little modding for more fuel. I don’t think it will take much. More to follow...
How far out on the H screw are you? After spending hours modifying and testing the zama on my 7900 and destroying several carbs in the learning process I can say... just buy the walbro if you want more power. It’s easier lol. My mods involved enlarging the venturi from 16.6mm to 17mm. As well as drilling the H main jet to .55 and thinning the shafts. I do not touch the low speed jetting, that part of the carb fed plenty of fuel for me. Definitely makes a difference, but time consuming. Be careful thinning the choke shaft as it only has a blade on one side. Easy to make it too weak and break the shaft. The walbro you start with a 17.5mm venturi and .64 jet stock. All I do on them is thin the shafts and they run good. However the zama is good carb on a stock or lightly modified saw. It works well for that application.
 
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Terry Syd

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Installed the Zama C3M and my saw finally acts like it should. No problems whatsoever with wandering tune or fat mix in the mid range. I do however feel like the saw lost a little bit of power so I’m going to do a little modding for more fuel.

Yeah, the Zama has superior fuel circuits, but it is a bit smaller in the venturi. I've spent a little time on flow benches and I recognize that the smaller venturi on the Zama was designed on a flow bench to help it flow.

That sounds great, until you see how the carb was manufactured. The designer must have crapped himself when he saw it.

The casting flash from the mold is on the edge of the VENTURI!

The venturi is where the highest rate of air flow exists and that is where the roughest part of the carb is!

You can fix that by punching out the discharge nozzle, the throttle and choke shafts. Then you can take a small soft rubber hose and some valve grinding compound and by pulling it back and forth, you smooth out the surface of the venturi. A bit of work, but if you are looking for some more flow, there it is.

Another thing that can be done to the Zama is to drop the main discharge nozzle down lower so it doesn't stick out as much. I did one carb that way with the nozzle all the way down in the venturi and I was surprised it didn't SEEM to make any difference to the fuel curves. I'm sure it did, but I don't have the sense of feel that a chainsaw racer has. A dyno would have picked up the change, whatever it was (could have been better for that engine, I don't know).

Anyway, smoothing the rough edge on the venturi will work a lot better than thinning the shafts.

By the way, did you mod the Zama? What size jets did you end up with?
 

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Yeah, the Zama has superior fuel circuits, but it is a bit smaller in the venturi. I've spent a little time on flow benches and I recognize that the smaller venturi on the Zama was designed on a flow bench to help it flow.

That sounds great, until you see how the carb was manufactured. The designer must have crapped himself when he saw it.

The casting flash from the mold is on the edge of the VENTURI!

The venturi is where the highest rate of air flow exists and that is where the roughest part of the carb is!

You can fix that by punching out the discharge nozzle, the throttle and choke shafts. Then you can take a small soft rubber hose and some valve grinding compound and by pulling it back and forth, you smooth out the surface of the venturi. A bit of work, but if you are looking for some more flow, there it is.

Another thing that can be done to the Zama is to drop the main discharge nozzle down lower so it doesn't stick out as much. I did one carb that way with the nozzle all the way down in the venturi and I was surprised it didn't SEEM to make any difference to the fuel curves. I'm sure it did, but I don't have the sense of feel that a chainsaw racer has. A dyno would have picked up the change, whatever it was (could have been better for that engine, I don't know).

Anyway, smoothing the rough edge on the venturi will work a lot better than thinning the shafts.

By the way, did you mod the Zama? What size jets did you end up with?
Great tips thanks for sharing. No I haven’t modded it yet, slapped it on box stock. Wanted to make sure the carb swap fixed all my problems before messing with it.
 

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How far out on the H screw are you? After spending hours modifying and testing the zama on my 7900 and destroying several carbs in the learning process I can say... just buy the walbro if you want more power. It’s easier lol. My mods involved enlarging the venturi from 16.6mm to 17mm. As well as drilling the H main jet to .55 and thinning the shafts. I do not touch the low speed jetting, that part of the carb fed plenty of fuel for me. Definitely makes a difference, but time consuming. Be careful thinning the choke shaft as it only has a blade on one side. Easy to make it too weak and break the shaft. The walbro you start with a 17.5mm venturi and .64 jet stock. All I do on them is thin the shafts and they run good. However the zama is good carb on a stock or lightly modified saw. It works well for that application.
A stock C3M has a Venturi diameter of 17mm. I’m out at 2 turns on the High speed. Like I said above it’s not down by much and nowhere near made the saw a dog, still runs strong. My dyno hands could be full of *s-worde too, hard to tell. Gonna do some basics like thinning shafts and stuff. I need to go at this slow unlike when I tried modding the RWJ.
 

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A stock C3M has a Venturi diameter of 17mm. I’m out at 2 turns on the High speed. Like I said above it’s not down by much and nowhere near made the saw a dog, still runs strong. My dyno hands could be full of *s-worde too, hard to tell. Gonna do some basics like thinning shafts and stuff. I need to go at this slow unlike when I tried modding the RWJ.
It’s 16.6mm at the smallest part. I open that to 17mm carefully at the top of the bore with a burr. You could also punch out the nozzle and bore it out on a drill press too. But that takes more time. 64C30040-AE35-47E7-848E-F011F1AD32BD.jpeg At 2 turns out you’ll run out of fuel like I did in the wintertime on my ported 7900. Start with drilling the H main jet to the next size up. You want to be around 1 - 1.5 turns out on the H at your ideal tune. Then thin the shafts. 57805428-1267-45D5-B2C9-DE5297785A26.jpegThat part I circled is what you drill to get more fuel on the H screw. My L screw was sitting at an acceptable 1 - 1 1/4 turn out. I left that alone. It is very easy to mess up the carburetor drilling the low speed circuits and it isn’t needed like some say. I put hours of work into my 50$ C3m carb when I could have just slapped on a 70$ HD carb for 20$ more... I can’t say it was worth my time honestly. But you might as well experiment since you have the carb already. Start with drilling the main jet and thinning the shafts. That should be satisfactory. Boring it out isn’t totally necessary and takes time, but it is a gain.
 
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Terry Syd

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OK, I haven't looked back on this thread, but I believe you are building a 71cc engine. I believe that Poleman came up with a .3o mm jet on the idle/transition jet and an .35mm on the auxiliary jet.

I'm using a .35mm and .35mm on my 77cc saw.

You will have to pull the transition jet and drill the transition hole under the jet closest to the throttle plate in the carb body from .5mm to .55mm. Otherwise the idle gets really hard to dial in (been there, done that - just do it).

Pulling the transition jet requires a bit of finesse. Do not try to pull the jet straight out, you will cut the top off of it. I made up an old diagonal cutters with with a notch in it to get a grip on the raised jet. Clamp down, and then start working the jet like you were 'unscrewing' it. When it comes out without any problems, you have succeeded in doing something that most of us never did - we chopped the top of the jet off and learned a hard lesson.

Drill the carb, maybe smooth the venturi, and then get back to us.

EDIT: Oh yeah, if you bump up the low speed circuit flow, you may have to block off the jet on the back of the nozzle in order to be able to lean out the high speed jet.

EDIT#2: You may find if the 'off idle' throttle response is too rich, a small washer or two under the metering spring will bring back the throttle response like a light switch.
 
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XP_Slinger

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Thanks guys.

I’ll not be opening up the Venturi, just smoothing as Terry mentioned. Imo, overall diameter is only part of the equation. I want reliability, stability and good atomization velocity, basically everything the RWJ wasn’t giving me. .4mm is less than .020”, doubt opening it up makes an appreciable difference. Now opening up fuel circuits a touch is what I believe it needs, drops rpm in the cut a little easier than before. My test wood could also be the part of what I felt, chunk of seasoned ash with gnarly double heart. Before I even start modding I’m gonna put a 20” bar back on it and make some cuts in clean wood like I did before. Currently have a 24” on it which is what I normally run.
 
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Lightning Performance

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Yeah, the Zama has superior fuel circuits, but it is a bit smaller in the venturi. I've spent a little time on flow benches and I recognize that the smaller venturi on the Zama was designed on a flow bench to help it flow.

That sounds great, until you see how the carb was manufactured. The designer must have crapped himself when he saw it.

The casting flash from the mold is on the edge of the VENTURI!

The venturi is where the highest rate of air flow exists and that is where the roughest part of the carb is!

You can fix that by punching out the discharge nozzle, the throttle and choke shafts. Then you can take a small soft rubber hose and some valve grinding compound and by pulling it back and forth, you smooth out the surface of the venturi. A bit of work, but if you are looking for some more flow, there it is.

Another thing that can be done to the Zama is to drop the main discharge nozzle down lower so it doesn't stick out as much. I did one carb that way with the nozzle all the way down in the venturi and I was surprised it didn't SEEM to make any difference to the fuel curves. I'm sure it did, but I don't have the sense of feel that a chainsaw racer has. A dyno would have picked up the change, whatever it was (could have been better for that engine, I don't know).

Anyway, smoothing the rough edge on the venturi will work a lot better than thinning the shafts.

By the way, did you mod the Zama? What size jets did you end up with?
Any pics down the throat of your smoothed out carb?
:icon_popcorn:
 

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My problem with the stock 64xx type carb is it would run great with stock circuits on stock type saw but it will die in the woods feeding this thing @84cc. It was all done with a single port muffler mod during break in. The dual port will make it worse I'm sure. Carb settings went to 2L 2.2H it's done.
The transition is horrible anywhere on the trigger. Mods did little. Ten seconds in the cut and it's scary lean. I can get that back again but should I just move to bigger carb beyond 17.5mm or go back in and start with another carb a little bigger and not kill off the transition to the H circuit?
Been out of carb work for too long :(

You guys have time to play with these saws, I really don't right now but would like to get this thing much better, its sad and will cook.

Edit: I have another stock carb here. After two this is becoming a pia.
 

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My problem with the stock 64xx type carb is it would run great with stock circuits on stock type saw but it will die in the woods feeding this thing @84cc. It was all done with a single port muffler mod during break in. The dual port will make it worse I'm sure. Carb settings went to 2L 2.2H it's done.
The transition is horrible anywhere on the trigger. Mods did little. Ten seconds in the cut and it's scary lean. I can get that back again but should I just move to bigger carb beyond 17.5mm or go back in and start with another carb a little bigger and not kill off the transition to the H circuit?
Been out of carb work for too long :(

You guys have time to play with these saws, I really don't right now but would like to get this thing much better, its sad and will cook.

Edit: I have another stock carb here. After two this is becoming a pia.
At 84 cc I would go to a bigger carb but that’s just me.
 

Steve

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See that's just it. No one is running this set up over about 78cc. Still have the stock smurf stroke but it's hungry and getting hot.

My first 6421 i put a 54mm kit on ran its azz off with a gutted muffler and stock carb. Was a 2011 model. Did they change the carbs on the later models?
 

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Any pics down the throat of your smoothed out carb?

Sorry, no pics available. When Poleman and I were discussing Zama mods he and I thought it would look really kewl to have the carb body anodized blue and then polish the edge of the venturi before all the parts went back into the carb.

Last I heard Rich was having some health problems. Anybody know his status now?
 

Terry Syd

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Maybe the fuel filter? Sometimes it is the simple things.

I just rebuilt a carb where I thought the diaphragms were at fault. It had been slowly running out of fuel for several months. After rebuilding the carb I tried to start it, nothing. Pulled the plug and it was completely dry, no fuel.

I looked down at the fuel hose. Hmm, there is fuel on the outside of the hose, isn't it suppose to be on the inside?

Pulled the fuel hose out and found a crack in it. The crack had slowly gotten worse until the carb was just sucking air through the crack.

Oh well, looking on the bright side, I won't have to rebuild the carb for years.
 

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There's the HD30 from the 375K power cut. Bolts right in with zero changes. :)

part number 503 281 811
Shhhh!!!! Can’t be giving out secrets. Lol
 

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There's the HD30 from the 375K power cut. Bolts right in with zero changes. :)

part number 503 281 811

Do they have a flood governor like some cut off saws or they are literally bolt on and go?
 
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