261 M-Tronic - What makes it tick.....

[paragonbuilder]

If I can ask... How much did you get for it?

Everyone else reading... a non-running (headless) would work.
I am in the working stage of taking a saw and connecting an electric motor to spin it up.

I sold it to a friend, so it was reasonable. It was also pretty new, had very few tanks through it.

 

[Greenerpastures]

If I can ask... How much did you get for it?

Everyone else reading... a non-running (headless) would work.
I am in the working stage of taking a saw and connecting an electric motor to spin it up.

Would a cordless drill be an easier option,
or use a pillar drill with a belt around the chuck, that way
you could adjust the speed, or even drive directly from the
chuck of the drill.
Or spin the flywheel in a chuck of a pillar drill, and make a
plate with two holes to locate the coil in the correct position
and just clamp it in place.

Just some thoughts.

 

[MustangMike]

The MS 362 gets M-Tronic Vers. 2 soon.
They released a technical information for the dealers.
New cylinders/Coils and carb to get this saw more robust.
They have new Solenoids for dusty enviroments.

I'm sure what you posted was not Greek, but it may as well have been! My Dad could speak German, which helped him survive the war, but I don't!

 

[breese]

Would a cordless drill be an easier option,
or use a pillar drill with a belt around the chuck, that way
you could adjust the speed, or even drive directly from the
chuck of the drill.

Just some thoughts.

All great thoughts but I have a fan motor for a down draft heater (in my garage) that I can control the speed of and do not have to worry about over heating or damaging a good drill.

Nothing like using a tool for what it is designed to do....
(ok... my bad. Don't throw that back in my face with the M-Tronic LOL )....

 

[Greenerpastures]

What are you going to measure, pwm or on off,
they are the same, pwm is either high on, or low off,

A pulse that is triggered like in a standard coil is
also either on or off, so what is this information for.

 

[breese]

To find out how the dgm1 diag cable and software communicate to the M-Tronic.
So far, Stihl's software seems to read everything offered but only does a Reset to Factory.

I want to see what can Actually be done

 

[Greenerpastures]

I know nothing of that cable or the software, but I get what you are
trying to do.
Is this software loaded on a computer, or dedicated device,
either way, I would be trying to get into the software and see
what it is doing, if the software is on a dedicated device,
can the device be opened and the chips inside it identified.
This would give clues as to what type of communication is going on.
And may be even hold the key to accessing the on board code.
If you know what the code is doing, then you will have a good idea
of what paramaters are being passed back and forth.

In any event, it is most likely that pwm is being used to control
the fueling of the saw, if so, a micro controller of some sorts would
be required on the saw, to calculate rpm and add fuel accordingly,
after that, temprature or oxygen sensor readings would be a good idea,
and paramaters re adjusted to take their findings into account.

It may also be the case that the spark timing is adjusted by the same micro controller
albeit in a separate process or not.

 

[nohoff]

I m trying to decompile the software.
Only problem is the obfuscator so far...

 

[breese]

Understandable seeing the mdg1 is a Bluetooth device and that's the first thing it is looking for.
I have been trying to find something related to Temp or RPM to get an idea of what is it capable of and how it communicates

 

[Greenerpastures]

I m trying to decompile the software.
Only problem is the obfuscator so far...

Typical, thats why I use linux, but even that is changing,
google adding code to the kernal, never a good thing.

 

[CR888]

I like this thread but I'm pretty sure Stihl would hate it. Nobody I know of has successfully hacked the MT system for benefit in the near decade its been around. I guess a computer genius is the last person one would take down to the woodpile to play chainsaw....

 

[Greenerpastures]

Had no idea MT was out so long.
Either way, most people I know preffer standard ignition
and adjustable carb, I would think if / when we are all forced
to use AT or MT for the good of the planet, then cracking the
code won't take long, right now it doesn't matter as we still have choice.
In all honesty, it would probably be just as easy to design ones own
MT type system in open source code and use Arduino or similar boards.

There must and always will be a power source already on the saw,
this when regulated and filtered will drive the Micro Controler,
adding a selonoid to the carb, no problem, as they come with
one anyway, adding temprature sensor, probably comes with one,
if not easy to add, same goes for oxygen sensor.

I have no interest in it, for I don't mind carb and standard ignition
on my saw, but when we are all forced into MT AT type systems,
then I will take an interest, right now, it aint broke so not going
to fix it.

 

[MustangMike]

I prefer being able to leave my screwdriver where it belongs ... in the tool box!

Some of my standard saws are not finicky, others are, but my two M Tron saws just run great all the time.

 

[Greenerpastures]

I prefer being able to leave my screwdriver where it belongs ... in the tool box!

Some of my standard saws are not finicky, others are, but my two M Tron saws just run great all the time.

At this day and age any manufacturer that can't make something as simple as as micro controlled small engine should be out of business.
My problem is having confidence, partticularly in Husqvarna, because of how they could not even get it right from the word go.
At its worst, it is only shrunk down technology that has been
around a very long time.
Problem 2, is how they keep it closed source, it stinks that they want to
hide their attempts, if they left it open source the open source community
would have fixed it years ago for them, and manufacturers could record any modificarions to the code by using an encrypted 1 dollar chip, manufacturers want to control everything and charge a premium for doing so.
In principle the mirco controlled saw should be miles ahead of where it is.
They are getting there I suppose, but am not becoming a test pilot intead of a consumer with confidence,

If joe soap spent as much time as the MT AT guys doing his job and making similar progress, joe soap would be out of a job, I don't trust joe soap.

 

[breese]

Like so many manufactures, the idea of keeping their technology hidden allows them both control over the product and higher prices for those that want it.

In the case of the Stihl M-Tronic, the technology (hardware and software) that has gone into it is extreme and well protected (hardware wise). I have hours into trying to see what makes this thing tick.

Now the issues at hand (and maybe Stihl will wake up) are many.
The fuel system solenoid / regulator while is an interesting idea, the method has flaws.
First there is no method of sensing the Air Fuel Mixture so they calibrate by RPM.
The saw knows the TCD, the Start switch appears to retard the timing for easy startup.
The saw then has a calibration where you make 4 cuts at WOT and then shut it down.
When doing that, the calibration is saved.
Problem is, if something / anything is not right, the only thing the operator can do to restart the saw is to do a Reset and if that does not work, you take it to the dealer for them to reset it.
I have seen reports of saws running WOT and pushing raw fuel out the exhaust.

Next is the timing. There are a lot of well respected builders that have modified the keys for the flywheel in an effort to advance the timing. While I understand the idea / method of doing it (and would trust them to do it), I think the reason for so many not getting the same results from one saw to another is the actual mounting of the flywheel with a modified key.
Personally, someone could make a little $$ creating keys that fit the crank and flywheel properly.
The idea of having a gap (of any size) on the flywheel side leaves a lot to be desired in the results.

Now if someone was to make keys from a wider stock and grind the top and bottom halves with the same offset (opposite of each other), then the advancement would be right on from one saw to another. If I had the tools, I would make such a key....

Now, taking an electronic ignition and having the ability to change the spec's would be a great advantage to everyone including Stihl

Allowing the saw to use the Start switch and retard the engine to a given setting would make the saw easier to start and idle properly.
Allowing the tuner to modify the RPM range and advancement of timing could then be used to get a maximum RPM or increased torque depending on what the operator / owner is looking for.

I do not think a reliable fuel injection is going to happen until advancements in this New Technology catch up and starts monitoring things like Air Fuel mixture, Oxygen Rates at the exhaust, etc....

 

[CR888]

We need to get you the FI TS500i demo chop saw that's been out for some years to dissect. I think the new upcoming MS500i chainsaw uses basically the same system. But working out the MT system sure has many of us interested for now.

 

[Greenerpastures]

Like so many manufactures, the idea of keeping their technology hidden allows them both control over the product and higher prices for those that want it.

In the case of the Stihl M-Tronic, the technology (hardware and software) that has gone into it is extreme and well protected (hardware wise). I have hours into trying to see what makes this thing tick.

Now the issues at hand (and maybe Stihl will wake up) are many.
The fuel system solenoid / regulator while is an interesting idea, the method has flaws.
First there is no method of sensing the Air Fuel Mixture so they calibrate by RPM.
The saw knows the TCD, the Start switch appears to retard the timing for easy startup.
The saw then has a calibration where you make 4 cuts at WOT and then shut it down.
When doing that, the calibration is saved.
Problem is, if something / anything is not right, the only thing the operator can do to restart the saw is to do a Reset and if that does not work, you take it to the dealer for them to reset it.
I have seen reports of saws running WOT and pushing raw fuel out the exhaust.

Next is the timing. There are a lot of well respected builders that have modified the keys for the flywheel in an effort to advance the timing. While I understand the idea / method of doing it (and would trust them to do it), I think the reason for so many not getting the same results from one saw to another is the actual mounting of the flywheel with a modified key.
Personally, someone could make a little $$ creating keys that fit the crank and flywheel properly.
The idea of having a gap (of any size) on the flywheel side leaves a lot to be desired in the results.

Now if someone was to make keys from a wider stock and grind the top and bottom halves with the same offset (opposite of each other), then the advancement would be right on from one saw to another. If I had the tools, I would make such a key....

Now, taking an electronic ignition and having the ability to change the spec's would be a great advantage to everyone including Stihl

Allowing the saw to use the Start switch and retard the engine to a given setting would make the saw easier to start and idle properly.
Allowing the tuner to modify the RPM range and advancement of timing could then be used to get a maximum RPM or increased torque depending on what the operator / owner is looking for.

I do not think a reliable fuel injection is going to happen until advancements in this New Technology catch up and starts monitoring things like Air Fuel mixture, Oxygen Rates at the exhaust, etc....

The technology is here, Stihl and Husqvarna are not able to adapt it,
it is new tech to them, where to the auto industy it is old hat.

These companies seem to be struggling, is it designers that are not up to scratch,
it would seem so to me, all this puffing and blowing about new design,
nothing new about what they are doing, at most they are only fine tuning
what came before, and failing to implement anything new that is of much good.
Its not down to funding, for they are obviousely paying designers, just not successfull ones.

And I can't see it being that they are holding back on this so they can keep on charging for
every small improvement, for they are making none.
Yamaha could learn them a thing or two.

And it is not difficult to write code to monitor sensors and take the appropriate
actions.

 

[CR888]

Many say with saws offered in both MT and regular carb/ignition that outright performance favour the non MT units that can be manually adjusted (leaned out) to the ragged edge for more power/speed (rpm). Just thinking 'if' you could change the MT system what would you change for increased performance etc.

 

[breese]

We need to get you the FI TS500i demo chop saw that's been out for some years to dissect. I think the new upcoming MS500i chainsaw uses basically the same system. But working out the MT system sure has many of us interested for now.

Thanks.... While I have looked at some of the info on the TS500i, the hardware is very different and as far into this version we are at, I don't think this is the time to change.
Now if someone has info that shows me the newer saws will be going towards the 500i electronics, that could be a reason to look further

 

[breese]

The technology is here, Stihl and Husqvarna are not able to adapt it,
it is new tech to them, where to the auto industy it is old hat.

True but you have to consider the facts.
The auto industry (or motorcycle for that mater) does not have the constraints the saws do. Such as Temp (their ECU is in the cab), extreme dirt and dust, normal gas verses a mixed fuel.

Just thinking 'if' you could change the MT system what would you change for increased performance etc.

To start with would be the timing aspect.
Being able to adjust the saw (depending on the chain mounted) for RPM or torque....
In some instances you might want a lot of RPM.
In others torque might be advisable to get thru that large hardwood... Again, that would be for the tuner / owner / operator to decide.