036 hard to pull starter cord

[flh69]

036 Stihl chainsaw bought new years ago. Lately it has become a beast to start. I used to be able to drop start it. But now it will yank the cord out of your when you try to start it. The only way now that I can start it is to place it on the ground with my foot on the handle to hold it down. Pretty hard on this old man’s back I checked the air gap and set it at .011. Checked the starter pawls & cord. I removed the muffler and spark plug and looked inside with a bore scope. The cylinder and piston skirt looks great. There is some carbon on top of the piston but I can not tell how much. Is there anyway to put something in on top of the piston that would dissolve the carbon? I do not want to tear the engine apart.

 

[Ryan Browne]

It might be worth checking the flywheel key to make sure it didn't shear allowing the timing to advance a little bit. I hear good things about echo red armor cleaning up carbon deposits.

 

[flh69]

I have been using Red Armour for a year or two. Wonder what it would do if I just put some on top of the piston?
I will check the flywheel key when it quits raining.

 

[flh69]

I pulled the flywheel and the key and the slot are ok. The cylinder looks great and the top of the piston has very little carbon build up. The exhaust manifold is pretty free of carbon. I don't understand why this has started to become such a beast to pull the starter cord. I can pull it by putting my foot in the handle to hold it down and pulling the cord. It just started being hard to pull recently. I bought this saw new many years ago and could always drop start it with ease until lately.

 

[stihl #1]

Bit of a long answer here. STIHL introduced microprocessor ignition modules with variable ignition timing on all models starting with the MS 361 in 2003 and maybe the MS 280 IEM in 2002. This allowed the ignition timing to be around 10 degress BTDC at cranking speed and then advance as RPM went up. I saw some failures on first gen MS 361 saws where the timing would not advance, so it would start easy and idle great but start fluttering once the throttle was opened all the way, and never get over 5 to 6 k RPM. All saws before that had fixed timing at around 28 degrees of advance. For a two-stroke to reach 10k or more RPM the timing must be advanced that high, where a lawnmower engine doesn't need that much advance since it only runs around 3000 to 3600 RPM governed.
This is why all the larger CC engine sizes had a deco valve to assist in starting. I looked at the parts list for the 036 and the first cylinder for it did not have a deco valve, but it no longer available, and the only one shown now has a threaded hole for a deco valve, as well as a plug to use if the deco valve is not desired. If your shroud has a black plug in front of the spark plug, ref 3 in the second picture, take the shroud off and see if there is a plug, ref 9 in the first pic, and if so you can put a deco valve, ref 11, in. Not too expensive and won't require cylinder removal. A thicker gasket under the cylinder will lower compression and make starting easier, with some loss in power, but that would require a tear-down.

I also need to add that in my experience in talking to customers I have seen the same situation you describe many times with folks that could start their saw back then but not so easy now. I am 69 years old and I do not have the same strength as I did 25 to 30 years ago, and I suspect you bought that saw in the early to mid 90's since it first came out in 1991, so as tough as it is to admit it, you just may be at a point where you need to consider a new saw, with Easy Start and the newer technology for easy starting, or maybe a good quality battery saw. I have 4 different models of STIHL battery saws and I reach for one of them first unless I need a 20" bar or longer.
Hope that helps!

 

[ZeroJunk]

I start so many different saws a week I won't even put a number on it because you would just think I am lying anyway.

But, several times a week I will get a saw that you cannot pull the rope but a couple of feet to the point you think that is all the rope that is on it.
Turns out they are just dry. Squirt some mix straight in the barrel of the carb, or down the plug hole and see if it does not slick it up.

 

[flh69]

This is why all the larger CC engine sizes had a deco valve to assist in starting. I looked at the parts list for the 036 and the first cylinder for it did not have a deco valve, but it no longer available, and the only one shown now has a threaded hole for a deco valve, as well as a plug to use if the deco valve is not desired. If your shroud has a black plug in front of the spark plug, ref 3 in the second picture, take the shroud off and see if there is a plug, ref 9 in the first pic, and if so you can put a deco valve, ref 11, in. Not too expensive and won't require cylinder removal. A thicker gasket under the cylinder will lower compression and make starting easier, with some loss in power, but that would require a tear-down.
View attachment 458689
I also need to add that in my experience in talking to customers I have seen the same situation you describe many times with folks that could start their saw back then but not so easy now. I am 69 years old and I do not have the same strength as I did 25 to 30 years ago, and I suspect you bought that saw in the early to mid 90's since it first came out in 1991, so as tough as it is to admit it, you just may be at a point where you need to consider a new saw, with Easy Start and the newer technology for easy starting, or maybe a good quality battery saw. I have 4 different models of STIHL battery saws and I reach for one of them first unless I need a 20" bar or longer.
Hope that helps!

First of all thanks to all who have replied to my thread. Unfortunate my saw does not have the plug for a decom valve. I totally agree with you that age becomes a factor because birthdays have caught up with me also. I don't think that is the problem though because even with it on the ground and my foot in the handle to hold it it will sometimes jerk the cord out of my hand. I no longer am cutting firewood and am now buying it already split. I do however use it on occasions for cleaning up downed trees that fall across my lane. I have several other saws that I can use so purchasing a battery powered one would be my last resort.

 

[stihl #1]

The only other thing that could cause this would be if the timing has slipped electronically in the ignition module. I suppose it is possible although I have never seen it or proved it on an 036. I did some testing on STIHL FS 85 trimmers once and swapping the modules from one to another definitely made a difference on idle RPM and wide open RPM when checked carefully with a tach, so timing does vary some from one module to another. The only way to see would be to swap out the ignition module with one from another saw. A new module is still available, 0000 400 1300, but retail is around $100 so maybe find a friend with an 036 and if you can start it easier then try the swap. Also, as mentioned, carbon buildup on top of the piston means there is also buildup on top of the cylinder and together that cold raise the compression ratio enough to possibly cause this. Something easy to try is to put the piston at top dead center with the plug out, and pour Marvel Mystery Oil through the plug hole to fill the combustion chamber and let it sit for a few days. Some will leak past the rings so keep adding it. I have had success doing this to free stuck piston rings that were carboned up, so it might help soften and loosen the deposits of carbon present. Pour out the excess and make sure the bottom end isn't full so you don't get a hydro-lock when you try to pull it over. Once you crank it, it will smoke a lot but just keep it running and rev a little until it clears out. This won't cost much to try and shouldn't hurt anything.
I probably have a new in the box 1300 module in my parts stash and I would be willing to loan it to you to try if you can't find one.

 

[ZeroJunk]

Well, the 1300 is a "dumb" coil with no advance.
Seems to have ignored my post about dry cylinders being difficult to pull.

I start saws that are "locked up" for old farts every day. Funny thing is that I am older than most .

 

[flh69]

The only other thing that could cause this would be if the timing has slipped electronically in the ignition module. I suppose it is possible although I have never seen it or proved it on an 036. I did some testing on STIHL FS 85 trimmers once and swapping the modules from one to another definitely made a difference on idle RPM and wide open RPM when checked carefully with a tach, so timing does vary some from one module to another. The only way to see would be to swap out the ignition module with one from another saw. A new module is still available, 0000 400 1300, but retail is around $100 so maybe find a friend with an 036 and if you can start it easier then try the swap. Also, as mentioned, carbon buildup on top of the piston means there is also buildup on top of the cylinder and together that cold raise the compression ratio enough to possibly cause this. Something easy to try is to put the piston at top dead center with the plug out, and pour Marvel Mystery Oil through the plug hole to fill the combustion chamber and let it sit for a few days. Some will leak past the rings so keep adding it. I have had success doing this to free stuck piston rings that were carboned up, so it might help soften and loosen the deposits of carbon present. Pour out the excess and make sure the bottom end isn't full so you don't get a hydro-lock when you try to pull it over. Once you crank it, it will smoke a lot but just keep it running and rev a little until it clears out. This won't cost much to try and shouldn't hurt anything.
I probably have a new in the box 1300 module in my parts stash and I would be willing to loan it to you to try if you can't find one.

Funny you mention the Marvel Mystery Oil as I did pour some in the plug hole last night and started it this morning. You say to leave it set for a couple of days so I will try that again and see what happens. If the Mystery Oil goes to the bottom end how would I clear it? I also have an 028 which takes the same module so I will pull that off and make a swap. Thank you ever so much for the loan offer on the module.

 

[hacskaroly]

If the Mystery Oil goes to the bottom end how would I clear it?

Won't it just thin out and/or burn out through pulling it over?

 

[stihl #1]

If a lot seeps down under the piston it could hydro-lock the piston from underneath, or possibly blow back through the carb. To drain it out remove the carb and put the piston at TDC, or turn the flywheel just right to have the transfer ports open to the combustion chamber and hold the saw upside down. I have freed up stuck piston rings with MMO several times and did not have a problem with too much seeping past, just mentioning this so if it does you can deal with it.

 

[sixonetonoffun]

This gonna be mud daubers in the muffler?

 

[Al Smith]

If it just pulls over hard it could be the starter drum could be running excentric which will jamb the pawls .Some saws have a bushing on the drum some do not .

 

[flh69]

If it just pulls over hard it could be the starter drum could be running excentric which will jamb the pawls .Some saws have a bushing on the drum some do not .

Looking at the IPL I see an axle, 1128 080 6500, but I see no bushing. Short of tearing the housing apart is there anyway to determine if something is worn that would cause the eccentric run out?

 

[Al Smith]

In that case if the starter drum which Stihl calls a "rope rotor " has worn excentric you have two choices .Either bore out the hole and make a bushing or replace the drum . To check it without taking it apart you can see if it rocks on the shaft .If it runs straight then it probabley is not the problem .

 

[Mad Professor]

Over the years all my saws have gotten harder to start.30 years ago I never used the decomp on my 066.

I broke my shoulder last year, it healed and I have full motion, but need to get the weights out and do some lifting after ~6 months of being idle. Rowing and bent rowing exercises.