32 to 1

[49er]

Understanding base oil groups is important to choosing an oil. Yamalube 2R looks to be mostly Group 1&2 base oil. Group 1&2 oils smoke more so they add polybutene which puts a sticking residue on everything at elevated temperatures. Many additives attempt to correct for poor base oil.

" Oil Groups: since group 3 oil is technically a refined petroleum oil but also legally a "synthetic" oil (because it has such good properties) I choose to describe oils by their content of the different groups of oil instead of saying mineral/semi-synthetic/full-synthetic*. Group 1-3 are refined petroleum oils. Group 4 is synthetic PAO oil. Group 5 is synthetic and usually ester. The higher the number, the higher the quality. This info is from the oil manufacturers** which sometimes makes it obvious they are lying about its content (labeling it as full synthetic when it's not) or at what ratio you can use it at."

 

[3browns]

Understanding base oil groups is important to choosing an oil. Yamalube 2R looks to be mostly Group 1&2 base oil. Group 1&2 oils smoke more so they add polybutene which puts a sticking residue on everything at elevated temperatures. Many additives attempt to correct for poor base oil.

" Oil Groups: since group 3 oil is technically a refined petroleum oil but also legally a "synthetic" oil (because it has such good properties) I choose to describe oils by their content of the different groups of oil instead of saying mineral/semi-synthetic/full-synthetic*. Group 1-3 are refined petroleum oils. Group 4 is synthetic PAO oil. Group 5 is synthetic and usually ester. The higher the number, the higher the quality. This info is from the oil manufacturers** which sometimes makes it obvious they are lying about its content (labeling it as full synthetic when it's not) or at what ratio you can use it at."

So if I am picking up what you are laying down then 2R is made of the 2 lowest quality oil groups with some additives thrown in to make up for its crappy base chemistry?

And technically it's 100% mineral oil and not a mineral/synthetic blend?

 

[porsche965]

Where in the heck does this leave Amsoil Saber 49er?

I actually like a Mineral Oil especially for breaking in a cylinder and ring set.

 

[3browns]

Where in the heck does this leave Amsoil Saber 49er?

I actually like a Mineral Oil especially for breaking in a cylinder and ring set.

I am with you on this one

I have no plans to abandon Yamalube 2R regardless of the makeup of the oil nor would I turn my back on Saber regardless of makeup because I KNOW it works, and from firsthand knowledge

There are several oils out there that shouldn't work based on the SDS or the supposed Spec/Cert (or lack of the "appropriate" Cert)

But they do work and work well and are well documented by the guys who tear these saws down daily and get up close and personal with the innards and SEE what works and doesn't work

I trust MMWS and Tree Monkey and others who know more about these saws than some chemistry wizard at an oil company who is long on theory and short on real world application

Sorry, rant off...

 

[3browns]

Rant back on...

After thinking more about this, the flip side to what I said above is there are probably as many (possibly more) oils that are SUPPOSED to work for our use that DON'T

They have the right CERT or the SPEC or are formulated from just the right combo of unicorn tears and pixie dust but for whatever reason they simply don't work

I am not going to get hung up on labels or SDS sheets

OK, rant off again

 

[49er]

So if I am picking up what you are laying down then 2R is made of the 2 lowest quality oil groups with some additives thrown in to make up for its crappy base chemistry?

And technically it's 100% mineral oil and not a mineral/synthetic blend?

It looks like the majority of the base oil is Group 1&2. It may very well have some group 3,4 or 5 oil but it does not claim it. There is no industry standard for what can be called a synthetic oil. One thing to keep in mind "full synthetic, semi synthetic and mineral oil" are for the most part advertising phrases. The oil companies are the biggest false advertisers there are.
For $36 dollars a gallon I think R2 is a rip off. Does it work in a chainsaw hell yes. If I were running an ultra-light airplane would I use Yamalube? Probably Not. Almost all the cheapest oils on the market work fine in a chainsaw. I also believe some of the high priced designer oils are, to use there term "Specially Formulated", to maximize profits.

 

[49er]

Where in the heck does this leave Amsoil Saber 49er?

I actually like a Mineral Oil especially for breaking in a cylinder and ring set.

Hear is an interesting article about 2 stroke synthetic oils. Now when they say synthetic they are talking about the group 4&5 true synthetics not the group 3 oils which are synthetic for advertising purposes but most people consider it a highly refined mineral oil. The characteristics of group 3 is darn near as good as group 4&5. What is seldom mentioned is some of the disadvantages of groups 4&5 oils.

https://2strokeheads.com/index.php/...stroke-vs-4-stroke-synthetic-vs-non-synthetic

I don't know about Saber but here is Dominator.

AMSoil Dominator (data: #1 #2)
Cost: $13.17/liter
25-40% group 5 oil, 30-50% group 1 oils (CAS 64742-47-8 + 64742-48-9)
viscosity 7.2 @ 100ºC, 36.5 @ 40ºC, viscosity index 165, .87 density, 102ºC flash point
unapproved rating: API TC

Viscosity Index 165 is good but the flash point is low at 102C which is a sign of solvents.
$52/gallon.
Unapproved rating means it has not been tested by the right people.

 

[3browns]

The oil companies are the biggest false advertisers there are.

This ^^^

 

[49er]

I am with you on this one


I trust MMWS and Tree Monkey and others who know more about these saws than some chemistry wizard at an oil company who is long on theory and short on real world application

Sorry, rant off...

MasterMind and TreeMonkey are smart people nothing wrong with listening to smart people.

 

[3browns]

Hear is an interesting article about 2 stroke synthetic oils. Now when they say synthetic they are talking about the group 4&5 true synthetics not the group 3 oils which are synthetic for advertising purposes but most people consider it a highly refined mineral oil. The characteristics of group 3 is darn near as good as group 4&5. What is seldom mentioned is some of the disadvantages of groups 4&5 oils.

https://2strokeheads.com/index.php/...stroke-vs-4-stroke-synthetic-vs-non-synthetic

I don't know about Saber but here is Dominator.

AMSoil Dominator (data: #1 #2)
Cost: $13.17/liter
25-40% group 5 oil, 30-50% group 1 oils (CAS 64742-47-8 + 64742-48-9)
viscosity 7.2 @ 100ºC, 36.5 @ 40ºC, viscosity index 165, .87 density, 102ºC flash point
unapproved rating: API TC

Viscosity Index 165 is good but the flash point is low at 102C which is a sign of solvents.
$52/gallon.
Unapproved rating means it has not been tested by the right people.

Back in the day of the "Other Chainsaw Site That Must Not Be Mentioned" you stood a good chance of having your @$$ handed to you if you dared use the "A" word (Amsoil)

It was vilified and shunned and more than one person condemned their oils solely on their marketing approach as if it was some kind of pyramid scheme

When I first started getting serious about using and maintaining saws I looked for something better than the 2.6 oz bottles of proprietary oils, mainly because I bought into the 32:1 camp and wanted to make even gallons of mix with even amounts of oil

Enter Saber available just down the street at the local grocery/dry goods store

I ran it in my little Stihl long enough to know it wasn't going to burn up and then ran it in my big Dolmar for a while and just kept quiet about what I was running

When I sent the Dolmar in to MMWS for a work saw makeover he emailed back and asked what kind of oil I was running

I sheepishly replied "Saber at 32:1" and waited for the wrath of god to descend

Instead he wrote back that the saw looked great and that I should keep using it

I was very surprised to say the least

Fast forward to today and LOTS of folks are using Saber and have been using it long enough to move well beyond the "boutique oil flavor of the month" stage and validate it as a solid oil choice

The article you linked is interesting and made me stop and think about the basic premise of synthetic oil being a LONG TERM oil for 4 strokes, rather than a lubricant that only has to last fractions of a second in a 2 stroke

Obviously we worry about corrosion protection and fuel stabilization as well but that is something we can deal with by using additives, fogging for storage, etc

Just when you think you have oil figured out you come on a new wrinkle

HOORAY FOR OIL THREADS...

 

[3browns]

For $36 dollars a gallon I think R2 is a rip off.

As far as being a "rip off" goes I am not a production cutter; in fact, I don't even cut firewood for my own use except for camping/motorhome use

I keep trees on my 2 properties in check and help out friends who have trees or burn firewood but don't have saws

I run weedeaters for both my properties as well and truth be known I probably burn almost as much mix in them as I do saws

$10-12 a quart oil doesn't bother me in the least

Out of curiosity what is your recommendation for a good oil at a fair price?

 

[bigfrank]

Back in the day of the "Other Chainsaw Site That Must Not Be Mentioned" you stood a good chance of having your @$$ handed to you if you dared use the "A" word (Amsoil)

It was vilified and shunned and more than one person condemned their oils solely on their marketing approach as if it was some kind of pyramid scheme

When I first started getting serious about using and maintaining saws I looked for something better than the 2.6 oz bottles of proprietary oils, mainly because I bought into the 32:1 camp and wanted to make even gallons of mix with even amounts of oil

Enter Saber available just down the street at the local grocery/dry goods store

I ran it in my little Stihl long enough to know it wasn't going to burn up and then ran it in my big Dolmar for a while and just kept quiet about what I was running

When I sent the Dolmar in to MMWS for a work saw makeover he emailed back and asked what kind of oil I was running

I sheepishly replied "Saber at 32:1" and waited for the wrath of god to descend

Instead he wrote back that the saw looked great and that I should keep using it

I was very surprised to say the least

Fast forward to today and LOTS of folks are using Saber and have been using it long enough to move well beyond the "boutique oil flavor of the month" stage and validate it as a solid oil choice

The article you linked is interesting and made me stop and think about the basic premise of synthetic oil being a LONG TERM oil for 4 strokes, rather than a lubricant that only has to last fractions of a second in a 2 stroke

Obviously we worry about corrosion protection and fuel stabilization as well but that is something we can deal with by using additives, fogging for storage, etc

Just when you think you have oil figured out you come on a new wrinkle

HOORAY FOR OIL THREADS...

I have also been using Saber at 32:1 for awhile with good results. Way back in the day, AmsOil only make one 2 stroke oil and I used it in my 2 stroke motorcycles at 100:1 with no problems. I knew some MX racers that used it at 200:1 with good results.

 

[49er]

$10-12 a quart oil doesn't bother me in the least

Out of curiosity what is your recommendation for a good oil at a fair price?[/QUOTE]

I have been using Mystik JT4 full synthetic by Citgo. I found where it has some ester oil in the base but it did not say how much. A lot of the snow mobil guys like it. I bought five gallons and have used about half. I think the cost was about $22 per gallon. I bought it before I did much researched on oils. I used five gallons of Baileys Synthetic before that. I usually mix 32:1.
Can-Am XPS is another oil I am considering if my latest experiment doesn't work out. Those Rotax engines make a lot of power and they recommend this mineral oil. I would bet it is all Group 3.
Ok, my oil experiment, this is where I lose all credibility, I have been using Shell Ultra Platinum in a Makita 6421. I know it has not been " specially formulated" to bla-bla-bla. At 32:1 it does not smoke. It is 100 percent group three base oil. The additive package is a low ash. I has no solvents to help mix with gasoline. I do shake it up. After two gallons the spark plug looks good and exhaust port is fine. I need to run a lot more of this mix before I call it a success. This Shell OTG oil is nothing like what the old timers ran back in the day, hell I am an old timer.

 

[3browns]

$10-12 a quart oil doesn't bother me in the least

Out of curiosity what is your recommendation for a good oil at a fair price?

I have been using Mystik JT4 full synthetic by Citgo. I found where it has some ester oil in the base but it did not say how much. A lot of the snow mobil guys like it. I bought five gallons and have used about half. I think the cost was about $22 per gallon. I bought it before I did much researched on oils. I used five gallons of Baileys Synthetic before that. I usually mix 32:1.
Can-Am XPS is another oil I am considering if my latest experiment doesn't work out. Those Rotax engines make a lot of power and they recommend this mineral oil. I would bet it is all Group 3.
Ok, my oil experiment, this is where I lose all credibility, I have been using Shell Ultra Platinum in a Makita 6421. I know it has not been " specially formulated" to bla-bla-bla. At 32:1 it does not smoke. It is 100 percent group three base oil. The additive package is a low ash. I has no solvents to help mix with gasoline. I do shake it up. After two gallons the spark plug looks good and exhaust port is fine. I need to run a lot more of this mix before I call it a success. This Shell OTG oil is nothing like what the old timers ran back in the day, hell I am an old timer.[/QUOTE]

I have heard good things about Mystik/Citgo oils but never seen them in Alaska

Your "experiment" is interesting and kind of supports the "oil is oil" theory

lol

As always it comes down to run what you want and what makes you feel warm and fuzzy

Regards and Happy Thanksgiving

 

[49er]

Thank You Michael. You Too.

 

[bigfrank]

Good thread. Lots of info!