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FarmerTec not starting

Ttxpc

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The one I just built has no high idle but does start easy enough, choke till it pops, 3 or 4 pulls on "on" and it will fire up and idle fwiw
 

Ewing Waymire

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Well, I have had a lot of things to check and to look at/test that the kind folks here have given to me. The saw will still not start but I have learned a lot more about it and myself.

In order to test the "hot sparkplug" idea, I did some cutting with my Echo CS-590. I found out that starting it without pushing the de-comp button wasn't hard at all. So the hard to pull MS660 was a subject that seems to me at this point to be the source of my troubles. The high squish/low compression and the tough pulling tells me that maybe I need to open it up and recheck the case/cylinder and rotating assembly.

With that in mind, is there a forum post or web page someone could recommend that shows/explains the measurements of the crank/case/rod/etc. such that I can see the errors of my ways?
 

Ttxpc

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I found with my build, the engine required the base gasket, without the piston hit the cylinder 'head', and with the gasket was .020" clearance, sounds like you are hitting, grab a couple base gaskets and mock it up, i use plasticene putty to check the clearance, there are heaps of vids on youtube of building this saw, afleetcommand's channel springs to mind
 

Ewing Waymire

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Ttxpc -- Thank You for your ideas, My squish, as posted earlier in this thread, is about .065" which has been explained to me is the cause of my low compression. The thing is (also started in earlier posts in this thread) that the saw should be super easy to turn over but it isn't so there is something wrong inside. I tried my best-est to get it right the first time, but there is something in error. I just do not know what it could be, which is why I started this thread 4 pages ago.
 

MustangMike

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If the case/bearings are tight, it will be near impossible to pull over. Generally, the accepted method of loosening them up is to tap the crank back and forth with a non steel hammer. If you pull the plug, the engine should spin easily. If it does not, you have a problem.

My first one was very tight, luckily it loosened up as I ran it.
 

Larry B

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Remove the spark plug and the recoil starter. Use flywheel to turn engine. Look in spark plug hole and turn flywheel back and forth with piston at TDC. If piston is hitting cylinder you should feel it. Engine should turn easily by hand with plug out and not "catch" anywhere. You should feel crankcase compression only.
 

Ewing Waymire

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Gentlemen, it has .065 squish so it is not hitting the top of the cylinder, but it is very stiff to turn over. Could the rotating assemble be crooked such that it moves but the force needed is causing the rotation to be too slow for the unit to get going (AKA run)? IF I can start the CS590 without pushing the decomp, I should have the strength to get this one started with it's decomp in, right?
 

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Like mustang mike said you may need to "center" the crank in the bearings. Remove clutch and flywheel and a brass or plastic hammer tap it one way or the other and see if it changes and hopefully loosens up. Is it tight but smooth feeling or tight and notchy? If bearings not seated in case properly ir crank not centered will be tight but smooth. Tight and notchy means bad bearing. Also you can pull the cylinder to be sure it is not the piston binding in cylinder. If ring end gap not located on pin could cause binding.
 

Larry B

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Hit post too soon..... you should be able to spin engine with one finger with the spark plug out till you hit crankcase compression. Only drag should be case seals, piston rings on cylinder and crankcase compression. With it binding if it starts and runs it will certainl fry whatever is binding.
 

MustangMike

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If the crankcase does not spin freely, it will seem to magnify the effort to get through the compression stroke. Check it out as discussed above.
 

dmitriy

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I have a "later" one where the high idle isn't in the cards, the trigger assembly doesn't work that way. Clicks and everything so it feels like it does, but looking in the carb....no movement on the throttle plate. Gets to the "pop" in two pulls....if you can hold the throttle, third pull it starts. BUT w/o that high idle it takes several pulls before it goes...and if you leave the choke on....its floods right out and won't start. What a :"PITA" and yet another wrinkle.

I had the exact same issue, probably. I just noticed mine behaves the same way - high idle clicks but the carb doesn't crack open so to speak.
My saw was VERY hard to start, tried with a drill even....

Finally what solved it was:
I used compressed air to blow out the crank case through the spark plug hole - probably used a bit much 2 stroke oil during assembly in crank / bearings.
I set the carb 1 turn out on H & L and screw the idle speed screw ALL the way in (propping open the carb so to speak - now I realize that probably compensated for the lack of high idle setting I do have the 76 on there not the 67 from the kit).
Pull until it pops on on choke. Then pull - wait 20 seconds, pull again wait 20 seconds repeat over and over. (I forgot maybe I sprinkled some choke in there too) at some point it started spurting to live little by little. Eventually (like 10 mins later) it started and I dropped the idle speed.
After that first start it was easy every time.

Hope its not a door stop man.
 
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afleetcommand

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Its only a door stop if you don't rid the parts that don't work and replace with better ones. Not that expensive. Just have to do it. Part of the cost of this game and why I've gone through the effort to show in spite of the little crap, they can be made to run. If I've said it once, I've said it a thousand time; if a person expects OEM quality and consistency, better buy OEM.
 

bottlefed

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As far as checking for resistance if tapping the crank back and forth does not loosen it up, try unbolting the cylinder and rotate it a little bit by hand till the cylinder lifts about 1/2" off the cases.
If you can turn it a little bit now freely with the cylinder moving up and down but when you seat the cylinder it becomes very hard to rotate then the drag is between the piston and cylinder assembly.
The most likely issue IMO would be rings that are not aligned on the pin in the ring land in the piston....less likely IMO would be a misalignment issue where the piston is cocked sideways in the bore due to a bad piston/rod or alignment issue of the cylinder bore or cylinder base milling.
Another issue would be a seized wristpin bearing but since the saw has not yet run I very much doubt this is the issue.
If you wind up having to pull the cylinder and piston off, I would advise making sure to chamfer the edges of the ports where they meet the cylinder bore....this can be done by hand with some emery cloth...it does not require a die grinder and bits. On my recent build if I placed the piston in the bore and applied some light pressure with one finger the edge of the skirt would catch the floor of the intake port very severely. Since the floor of the intake port was flat (IE dead parallel to the bottom of the piston skirt) I slightly rounded it along with adding a chamfer to the edge of the port/bore junction....I am pretty certain if I had not the saw would have at the least chewed up the skirt of the piston in short order.
Also not sure if you did this initially, but whenever building an engine make sure to take some brakleen or other residue free solvent and a clean cloth or paper towel and spray and wipe the ports and bore until all traces of machining residue are removed then spray a light coating of WD40 on the bore. I also always take brakleen and compressed air and thoroughly clean out all bearings and then when dry squirt some oil on all the bearings. I do not believe in soaking the piston and rings or bore in oil on assembly ( I just apply light coat to the skirt) as the rings need to seat and a bunch of oil particularly trapped in the ring grooves will inhibit this process....but this is just my opinion based on experience building race engines. However many others choose to soak pistons and rings and are also happy with their results.

PS....Don't get discouraged, even if you need a whole new piston and cylinder a FT one is only $14.16
 

Scavu

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Good Morning everyone!

I am new to your forum and sort of new to chainsaws, so (IF it is possible) be gentle with me (or whip my arsk if it is needed) but whatever it takes, I'd like to get some input with my issue.

For background, I've had a Echo CS-590 for about a year and used it some felling trees and a little milling with a PantherMill2. I didn't want to only have one saw (just in case) and the Echo was at its limit in what I was doing (or maybe I'm in just too big of a hurry).

I tried my best to read everything that I could find (but there is so much stuff out there, IS it really possible to read it all?) I watched lots of good and not so good youtube videos.

Bought a FarmerTec MS660 from HL Supply and it was almost complete (a couple small items not worth mentioning) I added a few OEM as recommended by some builders (wrist pin bearing, circlips, decomp, etc) and took my time with it.

I tested the unit for pressure/vacuum in the crankcase and the fuel tank with a MV8500 as I built it (and re-checked it again in the middle of these issues). Used 'Three Bond" for the case and cylinder in building it (and god help me IF I ever need to get them apart, <g>)

Time came to get 'er done, and took it outside to start it. I put 40:1 fuel mix in it and knew that it would be hard the first time.The fuel tank cap was leaking from places I didn't even know that it could so another one from HL fixed that.

I've now tried on several days stretching over a month now. No matter how I try (and even used a small amount of brake cleaner or ether) to start it, I either get nothing, a spudder or two and then nothing. A sputter and then a series of pulls with an occasional 'kickback' (what I call it cause it just will not go any further, and yes I've tried to start it without the de-comp just to see if that was it, but this 'kickback' is WAY harder than just no de-comp. BTW, I used the OEM husky de-comp in it to avoid issues. I "think" that I am using the choke correctly and have tried it in almost every possible combination possible. Once I did flood it and opened everything up (plug, muffler, opened up the throttle) and let it dry for a few days

I put a true WJ-76 Walbro Carburetor and same thing. Put another coil from HL on it, same thing.

Any ideas, I'll be happy to explain anything I confused you with and/or tell you anything that I did or didn't do due to my newbe position.

Ewing in backwater Oklahoma

Hi Ewing

I have encountered the same situation as yourself, and found it to be "Ignition Timing ".
I have built Three MS 660 Clones, and with the first two saws, I set the coil/flywheel gap at Ten Thousandths, and that worked fine. However for this last saw(a Big Bore), when I would yank on the starter, I would get a kickback that would rip the starter handle right out of my hand, as well as leaving my arm feeling as though someone had tried to rip it off.
Ignition timing is set by the distance between the coil and flywheel magnets, and to retard the timing, I adjusted the coil/flywheel gap from Ten Thousandths out to Eighteen Thousandths, and found that to be right where I needed it.
Be advised that I did have a flooding problem as well, due to the countless times that I had tried to start it, and so removing the spark plug and inverting the saw while pulling it over, as well as blowing compressed air into the cylinder, and throttle intake dried it.
Once you have fuel in the crankcase it is a bear to get started.
Hope that this helps.
 

MustangMike

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I don't think you found the real problem. One of my 660 clones has a carb that was not shutting off the fuel (lever was adjusted wrong). When there is fuel in the crank case, the saw is almost impossible to pull over. Fixing the carb fixed the problem.

Bad timing would not cause the crank case to fill with fuel.
 

Scavu

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I don't think you found the real problem. One of my 660 clones has a carb that was not shutting off the fuel (lever was adjusted wrong). When there is fuel in the crank case, the saw is almost impossible to pull over. Fixing the carb fixed the problem.

Bad timing would not cause the crank case to fill with fuel.
When you say that the carb was not shutting off the fuel, do you mean that the throttle plate was not closing, or the needle and seat were adjusted wrong ?
What I had was a fresh build that would not start, due to a Pre-Ignition problem.
Pulling the starter with the choke plate closed too many times caused flooding.
To the point that removing the spark plug and inverting the saw and pulling the starter, had fuel dripping out of the intake manifold, as well as fuel spraying out of the muffler.
The saw now runs very well without having changed the carb - I dried out the saw, and adjusted the timing - two pulls with choke on, she popped, and two more pulls at fast idle setting, she fired up.
She idles, revs without hesitation, and after shutdown, will fire back up.
 

MustangMike

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The problem I had was with the lever and needle. Makes it very hard to pull over.
 
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