FarmerTec not starting

[Ewing Waymire]

Good Morning everyone!

I am new to your forum and sort of new to chainsaws, so (IF it is possible) be gentle with me (or whip my arsk if it is needed) but whatever it takes, I'd like to get some input with my issue.

For background, I've had a Echo CS-590 for about a year and used it some felling trees and a little milling with a PantherMill2. I didn't want to only have one saw (just in case) and the Echo was at its limit in what I was doing (or maybe I'm in just too big of a hurry).

I tried my best to read everything that I could find (but there is so much stuff out there, IS it really possible to read it all?) I watched lots of good and not so good youtube videos.

Bought a FarmerTec MS660 from HL Supply and it was almost complete (a couple small items not worth mentioning) I added a few OEM as recommended by some builders (wrist pin bearing, circlips, decomp, etc) and took my time with it.

I tested the unit for pressure/vacuum in the crankcase and the fuel tank with a MV8500 as I built it (and re-checked it again in the middle of these issues). Used 'Three Bond" for the case and cylinder in building it (and god help me IF I ever need to get them apart, <g>)

Time came to get 'er done, and took it outside to start it. I put 40:1 fuel mix in it and knew that it would be hard the first time.The fuel tank cap was leaking from places I didn't even know that it could so another one from HL fixed that.

I've now tried on several days stretching over a month now. No matter how I try (and even used a small amount of brake cleaner or ether) to start it, I either get nothing, a spudder or two and then nothing. A sputter and then a series of pulls with an occasional 'kickback' (what I call it cause it just will not go any further, and yes I've tried to start it without the de-comp just to see if that was it, but this 'kickback' is WAY harder than just no de-comp. BTW, I used the OEM husky de-comp in it to avoid issues. I "think" that I am using the choke correctly and have tried it in almost every possible combination possible. Once I did flood it and opened everything up (plug, muffler, opened up the throttle) and let it dry for a few days

I put a true WJ-76 Walbro Carburetor and same thing. Put another coil from HL on it, same thing.

Any ideas, I'll be happy to explain anything I confused you with and/or tell you anything that I did or didn't do due to my newbe position.

Ewing in backwater Oklahoma

 

[brshephard]

Check the FACTS.
Fuel, Air, Compression, Timing, and Spark.
If you have a good spark, look at your timing. Sounds like yours may be too advanced.
Did your flywheel key shear?

 

[Ewing Waymire]

Yep, grew up in the shop of our local Ford dealer, dad was their #1 mechanic.

I checked the key, it is OK. Bought a couple of spares for luck (they are the weak link by design). I set the gap with a business card. Then tried two of them after double checking the key. Bought a new coil, same thing.

It has always sparked great. Always fueled Ok I tried the 'no de-comp' start to test compression, seems to have more resistance than this old poboy can handle so the de-comp is my ticket to avoid bengay.

I'm just thinking (really more of a WAG) of trying a socket on the flywheel hooked to a drill as a sort of electric crank start option for now, what you think?

Please keep those questions/ideas coming!

 

[huskihl]

Is the spark plug wet?
Check your impulse line and connections. Check your fuel lines and the plastic 90° elbow for cracks or kinks. And I wouldn't use the spark plug that came with the kit. Put an ngk in it.
Could also shoot a video of your starting method so we can see what's going on.

 

[Ewing Waymire]

I'm using an NGK (I have two). Only had the wet plug that one time, I understand flooding and am doing my best to avoid it. I used a better impulse line and manifold (Hyway) and the other lines seem OK, removed and inspected the elbow and the line to the carb, but will double check flow of gas using the catch bottle and vacuum tester. Pressure vac tests (which really tests the tank vent) passed with flying colors.

I am 'smart phone impaired', not even an old cell phone. Waste, fraud and abuse has hit me hard with higher bills and lower income from SSA. So no camera to shoot video.

After a long rest/drying out period, I fill the tank with fresh mix, set the choke and put saw on ground. Then I push the decomp (and reset it as need). I put all my gumption into a pull and continue pulling till it sputters. set control to choke off/fast idle and get back to fast pulling till it does as described in my first post until I wear plumb out.

 

[huskihl]

With fuel in the tank, if you unhook the fuel hose from the carb, does gas spray out?

 

[Ewing Waymire]

I'll need to test that, thanks for the helpful question! I'll get back to you when me and the saw are together again.

 

[redline4]

If I read correctly, you can get it to pop/sputter with the choke on, but once choke is off, nothing. Correct? What are your H/L screws at?

 

[Ewing Waymire]

Well, that happened faster than I thought it would. I have a ton of things to do this afternoon, but you really got me thinking so I went out and checked it, 'honey dews' be damn - yes even widowers have 'honey dews' ;-)

I rapidly obtained several ounces of fuel with no proding on my part. talk about a geyser!

 

[Ewing Waymire]

I screwed the high and low in (very carefully) and backed them off 1 turn.

IF I add external fuel (brake cleaner or ether) it doesn't seem to really make any difference. It might spudder but not run just like before.

Am I being too afraid of flooding it such that I go 'off choke' too soon?

Anyone have any input on the 'electric starter' idea?

 

[huskihl]

Don't think I'd employ the drill as a starter. I doubt you're turning it over fast enough and you may be shutting the choke off too soon. Or it's flooded. Hard to say

 

[smokey7]

If you put a scoket on the nut and turned it the direction needed to run you will just loosen the nut. Been there done it. I wonder if you have a bad flywheel bad magnets/wrong polarity/sequence? If you have compression fuel/air and spark timing of the spark is all it could be. Maybe someone could post a picture of there flywheel and eyeball your keys location. Maybe its in the wrong spot?

 

[Wonkydonkey]

Too much too take in, but my fav is,,,,get a known working plug, yep already hot from the saw it came from. Put it in your saw, with carb screws set factory...and then tip a few mls of fuel in to carb throat. Pull and listers. Don’t put ear muffs on as it will impede your ears.
If it was to fire it would be seconds.. pull till it pops then fast/hot start setting. But drop another few mls in carb throat 1st.

If you get a start, run for a few sec's then work from there, if it don’t.. then work backwards.

And what I mean, is if it pops you got fuel, but less air. Sort the air ( more and some fuel)then it should rev . Then it’s sorting fuel /air mix.

If you have to work backwards, it could be to much fuel or to much air

Let us know how your getting on

Cheers

 

[brshephard]

This saw was pressure tested correct?
1. Pull the plug and verify that you have a good spark. You should have a nice bright spark.
2. While the plug is out, run a compression test. Compression needs to be up in the 100's.
3. If you pass 1 and 2 spray some mix into the carb. Set the saw to position 3 for hot start. If it fires up and runs for a moment you have a fuel problem. If it won't start at you have a timing problem.

Let us know how this test goes and we can help you from there.

 

[Canadian farm boy]

How is the coil to FW gap?
It should be about .010 or about the thickness of a business card

 

[Wonkydonkey]

Did you use a mmws cylinder,?

http://opeforum.com/threads/stihl-660.12610/#post-655969

Base gasket delete ? Have you checked the squish.

 

[Ewing Waymire]

Good Morning everyone!

I want to thank everyone for their ideas on this. IF I do not address you personally below, it doesn't mean that I have ignored your post, just a lot to process at one time and long responses get lost in these 137 characters generation (no 'dis' intended here) <g>

brshephard - I did the pressure/vac test during the assembly and a double check after assembly and it held both for a very long time, way more than the Stihl service manual requires for a good engine. It has a bright spark, no need for dark conditions, plainly seen during daytime in my garage. I cannot find my compression tester and not sure it would fit the saw if I did. A new one is on my need list but times are hard and still paying on the credit card for the saw purchase.

Canadian farm boy - I used a business card for the gap and tried two as well (just in case). BTW, what is the relationship between the gap distance and the timing (bigger gap is more/less advance?)

Wonkydonkey - I used the regular FarmerTec P/C and had to file/sand in a few places to get the cylinder to set correctly on the case as the link earlier to Mastermind's photos shows. I used the gasket and didn't want problems so didn't modify anything other than ease the sharp areas both inside and outside the cylinder. I did test squish at the time of assembly several times and didn't write it down so I'll need to recheck it today and get back with you on what I find. I'll have to try that "hot plug" idea of yours. I can swap plugs between the Echo and 660, the slight differences (BPM8Y and BPMR7A) shouldn't matter for testing purposes, right?

Again, a BIG thank you to everyone! I approach things from my engineering background (electronics/computer hardware) and my early wrenching along side my dad at the Ford dealer. I'm a decent shadetree but not a real mechanic and haven't gave up on any project yet. Life is a learning experience but sometimes the school of hard knocks is harder than we would like. IF I only had a large group of friends to help me, but none locally :-( , only internet ones .

 

[brshephard]

Increasing the coil Gap retards the ignition timing.
Decreasing the gap advances timing.
Changing the gap only changes timing a little bit.
If you have a no start it's unlikely a gap change will fix it.

 

[Ewing Waymire]

Thanks for that, it will help me in the long run even if it isn't a big factor now.

Squish measures 0.065 inches at both sides and measured above the wrist pin. Seems high, is it a problem? or just lower than a hotrod saw?

 

[brshephard]

You want .020.
.065 might be a problem.
Ditch the gasket, that will drop you down to .045.
Seal it with something, Dirko is oe
Other folks use yamabond, I use permatex ultrablack.

After that you'll want to check compression. Buy one from the parts store and return it if you have to