Started Asian 440 BB #4 Today

[MustangMike]

Farmtech … no problems so far.

 

[MG porting]

Farmtech … no problems so far.

Same here but I've noticed that there advanced from the get go.

 

[MustangMike]

My mind is boiling 90 MPH right now, I'm questioning lots of things I've done (or not) … timing advance … cylinder porting … I just wish I had a crystal ball!

Plan to test lots of stuff at the CT GTG.

 

[MG porting]

My mind is boiling 90 MPH right now, I'm questioning lots of things I've done (or not) … timing advance … cylinder porting … I just wish I had a crystal ball!

Plan to test lots of stuff at the CT GTG.

Lol.just make sure not to advance the timing to much the power of the saw will start to fall and start to ping but so far I think you're doing good on what your doing I just don't want to see you kill a saw if it can be avoided.

 

[qurotro]

Do the Asian bottom hold up well? I have a box of OEM 440 parts. Just need a case and a crank.

 

[MustangMike]

I've not had any trouble with them, but I always use an OEM piston pin bearing, and I flush all my Asian bearings with WD-40 before I even turn them. They often have debris in them.

Unless your pockets are deep, I would go for it!

Another caution … the cases are sometimes not "correct" for the chain adjuster. Their adjuster often has an over sized large gear that will not fit into the case.

To get it to work (OEM will sometimes not work here) I chuck the over sized gear in a drill and run it against a file till it fits in the case. The everything seems to work OK.

The good part is their low cost allows a lot of broken OEM saws to come back to life.

 

[MG porting]

I've not had any trouble with them, but I always use an OEM piston pin bearing, and I flush all my Asian bearings with WD-40 before I even turn them. They often have debris in them.

Unless your pockets are deep, I would go for it!

Another caution … the cases are sometimes not "correct" for the chain adjuster. Their adjuster often has an over sized large gear that will not fit into the case.

To get it to work (OEM will sometimes not work here) I chuck the over sized gear in a drill and run it against a file till it fits in the case. The everything seems to work OK.

The good part is their low cost allows a lot of broken OEM saws to come back to life.

Apsalootly.

 

[huskyboy]

Lol.just make sure not to advance the timing to much the power of the saw will start to fall and start to ping but so far I think you're doing good on what your doing I just don't want to see you kill a saw if it can be avoided.

The 350/346 I built recently didn’t seem to like timing advanced. Probably already close to optimal stock. Every saw can be different for sure.

 

[MustangMike]

I have heard that a lot of Husky's don't like it, but most Stihl's need it. I may even start giving many of my saws even more.

 

[MG porting]

The 350/346 I built recently didn’t seem to like timing advanced. Probably already close to optimal stock. Every saw can be different for sure.

Yea there all different for sure I always check before I even attempted messing with the timing.

 

[I Know Something]

Something along this line is what my next winters build is going to be. Sometime around October/November. Thanks for posting this. My 660 is running great and that 372 kit they have makes a wonderful saw as well. This looks fun too.

 

[00wyk]

I have heard that a lot of Husky's don't like it, but most Stihl's need it. I may even start giving many of my saws even more.

I resisted advancing the timing on my MM'd 044 for quite some time because it ran so well. Once I advanced the timing, I gotta admit it really woke up.

I think it was Mitch that was showing the timing advance on saws a while back. Like in 2011 or so on another forum before he got sick of all of us The Echo's were super aggressive with their ignition set up. So a rather lackluster saw would pull a long bar in wood without bogging. I wouldn't say many were fast, but they would easily just chug right along with conservative factory porting and carbs. Timing makes a big difference.

 

[huskyboy]

I resisted advancing the timing on my MM'd 044 for quite some time because it ran so well. Once I advanced the timing, I gotta admit it really woke up.

I think it was Mitch that was showing the timing advance on saws a while back. Like in 2011 or so on another forum before he got sick of all of us The Echo's were super aggressive with their ignition set up. So a rather lackluster saw would pull a long bar in wood without bogging. I wouldn't say many were fast, but they would easily just chug right along with conservative factory porting and carbs. Timing makes a big difference.

When I advanced the 064 it came alive. Only did it about .015 since the saw has no decomp and I don’t want to kill the starter. Most Stihls really seem to benefit from it for some reason.

 

[Wonkydonkey]

When I advanced the 064 it came alive. Only did it about .015 since the saw has no decomp and I don’t want to kill the starter. Most Stihls really seem to benefit from it for some reason.

Yeh I totally agree, I’ve played with my stihl saws a bit, but when I’ve advanced the timing they had more torque and cutting speed, less bogging in the cut when leaned on a bit.

I'm sure there’s some maths somewhere that could prove it, ie piston speed, ignition time and fuel burn rate....and powa..... but I’m not a mathematical enough to even go there.

 

[00wyk]

Yeh I totally agree, I’ve played with my stihl saws a bit, but when I’ve advanced the timing they had more torque and cutting speed, less bogging in the cut when leaned on a bit.

I'm sure there’s some maths somewhere that could prove it, ie piston speed, ignition time and fuel burn rate....and powa..... but I’m not a mathematical enough to even go there.

There's loads of stuff on line. Like Randy, I used to mess around with muscle car engines back in the day. Most of it basically says you want complete burn(well, as complete as possible) around 20* ATDC, and not so much burn you get detonation or push back as the piston arrives BTDC. One way to test is to set the engine up to detonate, then pull back. I did that with an old pre digital Echo(and have done so on god knows how many V8's). As is sort of obvious - this can vary wildly depending on the set up, and even from the same engine to another of the same depending on fuel, deposits, manufacturing variances, build variances, etc etc. And if you get too carried away, you can damage your engine doing it as well.
Some manufacturers will be more aggressive than others here.


BTW, the reason Echos don't enjoy much advance, if any, is this according to their own web page(sic):

Digital Ignition:
This is the newest and most advanced ignition system because has a miniature CPU inside. The digital ignition will read the engine speed making adjustments to the timing to offer easy starts and high performance at variable engine speeds.

http://echo-usa.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/1377/~/what-is-the-difference-in-ignition-systems?

 

[MustangMike]

I believe I did .020 on my 10mm 044 (no decomp or cylinder porting), and I will leave it there. But on my most recent work (porting Asian 440 Big Bores and Asian (Cross P+C) 660s, I've been cutting the key .030 and seeing good results. Luckily, all these saws have decomps. I may not need them now, but nice to know they have them on a cold day! Even that 044 can bite you!

I have also been trying to keep the exhaust on the 660 (numerically) under 100, makes them easier to start and does not seem to hurt performance at all.

 

[00wyk]

I knew the 044 might bite me after I advanced the timing(I went .025 ish - my eyes is old). Anywho, I wasn't paying attention the other day and started it using the old between-the-legs method the euros are so in love with. The 044 snatched the handle from my hands and bounced it off the starter cover into my nad pack. The boys weren't happy about it.

 

[Wonkydonkey]

There's loads of stuff on line. Like Randy, I used to mess around with muscle car engines back in the day. Most of it basically says you want complete burn(well, as complete as possible) around 20* ATDC, and not so much burn you get detonation or push back as the piston arrives BTDC. One way to test is to set the engine up to detonate, then pull back. I did that with an old pre digital Echo(and have done so on god knows how many V8's). As is sort of obvious - this can vary wildly depending on the set up, and even from the same engine to another of the same depending on fuel, deposits, manufacturing variances, build variances, etc etc. And if you get too carried away, you can damage your engine doing it as well.
Some manufacturers will be more aggressive than others here.

[/MEDIA]

Just askin, Is that right what i Read above completely burnt
I thought you want ingintion x btdc. And avdance it more as the piston goes fasterer ..
Yes fuel takes time to burn and burins at the right time makes more powa at slightly atdc.. but at this flash of a millisecond is when I go all dizzy and confused......then fall over...


I’ve just replaced a p&c on a 200t, before the ear on the piston circling let go “a farmatec thing” it had a 20thou squish and gasket delete, with the 20thou/about 5* or 6* timing advance it used to bite a little at your fingers while starting.
Now as I said I just replaced the p&c, it has a gasket delete, but a slightly bigger squish “25 or 28thou, I decided to fit a new key on the wheel and run it for a tank full and see how it performed. Well there was no biting at the fingers and cutting was good well good as can be... so a tank got drunk, and I thought well let’s see if there is any difference with that other filed key I was using befor the ear got lose.
To my suprise, there was a less biting then before but unlike before the key change, in the same wood it held more rpm’s than it did with with out the timing adv.

So as I said before, I agree. all engines are different, and the type of fuel and oil ratio and squish size play a part, and not forgetting the type and manufacturer of the ignition coil @drf256 has said those blue Ducati coils work best in his 026 wild things he makes..

. I think tree monkey. Did somthing Before with timing advances, iirc it was x timing adv was best, but no gains if advance more but what saw and what thread...who knows... and yes I’ve read before somewhere, mastermind has found very little difference in some saws that he’s tried timing advances...Ie that make no more powa..
so all in all, it’s not a piece of cake so to speak...

 

[MustangMike]

I think one of you is referring to the start of combustion, and the other to completing combustion, It must start before TDC, but obviously does not finish till after TDC.

 

[MustangMike]

Well, I got news of my first saw failure yesterday - an Asian 440 Big Bore someone took off my hands.

Got the saw back this morning and ripped it down. The lower ring hung up on the bottom of the Exhaust port, which I did not widen, (I only widened the top)and I made sure it was beveled (both top and bottom). I also noticed that the lower rod bearing was starting to go, and I'm wondering if that caused the ring to hang up.

Another similar one I built for a Tree Pro had a lot more hours on it w/o any problems. This guy (with the failure) loved the saw, and always ran 40:1, but the 2 cycle oil he uses is not as good as the AMSOIL Saber I use. Luckily, I had another nearly identical saw I sent his way, so he will not be without. It is by far his favorite firewood saw. He has some decent sized hardwoods on his property, and says this saw goes through it twice as fast as his other saws.

So I have the following questions (comments welcome):

Is it likely that the lower rod bearing starting to fail resulted in the ring hanging up???

Did I get a bad crank, or are they all crap waiting to fail???

Will better oil keep them healthier a lot longer???

I'm hoping that some folks with time on these things will respond.

Thanks, Mustang Mike